Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It really is quite simple. There are some on here claiming to be Christians, who discount the OT and even Yahweh as God the Father.
So, can a person discount the OT and still claim to be a Christian?
I know what a Christian is, but I also know what Paul said:
ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
If you believe (and I do) that the books of Moses were written by inspiration of God, then you believe (and I do) that the writings of the prophets were also from God, because the law and the prophets speak the same things, and such things only the Holy Ghost could teach...and, if we, with a divine faith believe the Old Testament to be a revelation from God (which I do), we cannot question the divine authority of the New, when we consider how exactly the histories of the old agree with the prophecies of the new, and how the dark types and shadows of the law are illustrated and accomplished in the gospel.
It is no wonder that there is so deep a confusion in knowing and understanding God's heart, His truth, His whole truth, His complete will for your lives.....when you reject knowing wholy, completely Who He truly is and wholy, and completely what He expects of you. To reject the Old Testament...you reject knowing Him. It is obvious that you who reject the Old Testament do not...(know Who He is that is.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ
Well, I definately will respond to this.
Many claim to be a Christian, yet do not believe in the God portrayed in the Word. Yahweh, that is. Do you? Can you handle all that happened in the OT, while reconciling the fact that He is love? They seem to not be able to.
Actuallly, I have hit my limit on patience. Sorry, but to claim most of the OT was written by blind men who had not a clue who and what God was, and still claim to be a Christian,,well,,,a line needs to be drawn in the sand.
Most people who believe in UR can accept the fact that MILLIONS of people were wiped out by God in ancient times, including myself when I believed that way. I did not discount the Word to satisfy my agenda and doctrine. I tried to reconcile it, but I never just tossed it out as being written by ignorant blind men, when it is GOD INSPIRED.
I KNOW exactly what I believe. And yes, having believed in that nonsense for a spell, the OT actually helped set me back on the right path. You see, the WORD is ALWAYS right, and NEVER WRONG. If your interpretation of it is scewed, then maybe YOUR doctrine is, as well.
And wishy washy? Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black, coming from a past fundy into a cult? Sad, because now you have parked there without even seeking further instruction from the WORD of GOD.
The 'version' of God the Father and His Son that I believe in, is straight from the Word. So yes,,,if you do not believe in the God of the Bible, BOTH TESTAMENTS, then maybe you believe in something that only masquerades as light.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ
Nope. Easy answer.
But to discount the Word and claim it is the lying pen of the scribes,,is well, ludicrous.
I agree, Jesus set things straight regarding Moses' Law, for it was HIS RIGHT to, since He hearlded a NEW Covenant, a BETTER WAY.
That is NOT what I am talking about, and it is funny almost that the UR's are using the 'eye for an eye', and not the fulfillment of scriptures that Jesus talked of, or the Psalms, or the Proverbs, or the Prophets, or even learning the Spiritual Significance of the Law itself.
I am talking about a blanket statement used by the UR people, claming Yahweh is not God, or that God would NOT destroy people,,because He is love, or other such things written in the Word, yet they discount it. They claim the writers of the OT were just blind, ignorant, and had their own agendas,,,when in fact the entire Word is a beautiful mosaic. A Masterpiece that is completely beautiful, when understood through the Spirit.
Jeremiah 8:8 (English Standard Version)
"How can you say, 'We are wise,
and the law of the LORD is with us'?
But behold, the lying penof the scribes has made it into a lie.
It doesn't get much clearer than this now does it?
Is there any wonder why Jesus accused the scribes of falsehood and hypocrisy?
Believe whatever you want, it doesn't change the facts ... Not only does the old testament say that the law of Moses was corrupted by the lies of the scribes, Christ himself testifies to it when he contradicts and corrects the law of Moses when he says not to return evil for evil but instead to love our enemies and to bless those who hurt us ... He then goes and puts his words into action by dying for the very people who had him killed, and asking God to forgive them for killing him.
Deny it all you want, Jesus represented the true nature and Character of God, and the old testament which had become faulty does not, that was the reason for the new testament, because the hold was faulty and decaying and passing away ...
except for an eye for an eye, forswear yourself and hate your enemy.
You say those are scripture because you see them in the law of Moses , Jesus says NO they are not.
What about 1Jn5:7 and the last part of mark 16 is that scripture also?
It is in our bible so you must beleive it is yet neither are in any of the earliest manuscripts.
Actually, yes they are. Jesus did NOT nullify the Law, He fulfilled it. Completely. He did not go against anyone for what was practiced in the Law, and still showed the Spiritual side of the Law. For example,,,the stoning of the woman for adultry. He didn't tell them the Law was void. He exposed their own hypocrisy to them.
And we must remember this. Jesus DIED based upon the Law requirements according to the Pharisees of blasphemy. God's original requirememnts written down. Yes, they did so out of sheer ignorance.
But, He did this to hearld a NEW COVENANT. This is why He isn't a Levitical Priest, and is a Melchizedek Priest. Heb 7:12 explain WHY Jesus did and said what He said. He brought forth a change in the Law. 7:18 explains the setting aside of the former commandments of the Law. Chapters 8-9-10 explain this in detail of WHY the First Covenant has passed and the Second has commenced.
But in Exodus chapter 21, we see the original 'eye for an eye' statement, made by God the Father Himself.
"But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
This is a further expansion of the Noahic Laws about murder:
"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man."
It wasn't just Moses that started the eye for an eye. It has been around since the earliest times. It is called justice. Yes, it can be extreme, which is why the judges and kings had all the power. They interpreted the Laws and judged based upon what was written down.
Jesus did show us His Way, a better way. He showed us that no matter how perfect the Law was, man could not hold to it. He did though perfectly. He showed us that the religious leaders and govermental leaders did not want to relinquish their power over the people concerning matters of the Law and their personal interpretations of the Law.
Therefor, He brought us INTO His Covenant, which is a better one in which us mere men can, and should follow. His perfect Law of Love. Does this discount or nullify the Law? It cannot, for it is perfect and IS the Law of the Father. Romans 7:12
So, we must take the whole counsel of the Word to further understand where we are at today. How does one understand the Second Covenant, without the First? This is where confusion comes forth.
Hope this is making some sense. It does to me, but sometimes my words get all tangled up, because there is so much to say concerning this.
Some "Christians" need to spend more time worrying about their own qualifications instead of wasting their time trying to determine who should be excluded from their personal little club. When each of us stands before God to be judged, I hardly think He's going to require us to meet anybody's definition of "Christian" except His.
I'm trying to figure out how any Christian could read the OT and not find Jesus all the way through it. Every story, every name, every number....all points to Jesus and gives us incredible insights into His character and what this whole thing with us being on earth is all about. If a person is missing all of that, perhaps they should pray and ask God to put some better bible teachers in their path.
I've learned tremendous things about Jesus by just studying Jewish websites. I LOVE both the new and the old Testament equally.
But no....you don't HAVE to study it to be born again....but if you love Him....why wouldn't you WANT to?
Jeremiah 8:8 (English Standard Version)
"How can you say, 'We are wise,
and the law of the LORD is with us'?
But behold, the lying penof the scribes has made it into a lie.
It doesn't get much clearer than this now does it?
Is there any wonder why Jesus accused the scribes of falsehood and hypocrisy?
Believe whatever you want, it doesn't change the facts ... Not only does the old testament say that the law of Moses was corrupted by the lies of the scribes, Christ himself testifies to it when he contradicts and corrects the law of Moses when he says not to return evil for evil but instead to love our enemies and to bless those who hurt us ... He then goes and puts his words into action by dying for the very people who had him killed, and asking God to forgive them for killing him.
Deny it all you want, Jesus represented the true nature and Character of God, and the old testament which had become faulty does not, that was the reason for the new testament, because the hold was faulty and decaying and passing away ...
It is no different today. One reads Jesus' words, and then they twist them up combining them with other writers to formulate their own doctrines. Only difference is,,,there are a TON more scribes today, then yesterday. Back then, writings were limited, and interpretations of the Law reserved only for the Pharisees. The general public had to go by what they said, and they followed them even to stonings and such.
We have the Laws written on our hearts now. We don't need for ANYONE to tell us such matters if we seek on our own. IOW, there is no ignorance of the Truth.
Some "Christians" need to spend more time worrying about their own qualifications instead of wasting their time trying to determine who should be excluded from their personal little club. When each of us stands before God to be judged, I hardly think He's going to require us to meet anybody's definition of "Christian" except His.
Umm, ok.
Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
I will keep fighting until my last human breath. And it IS a little club, because my King Jesus said it was. There are FEW that find it. But it isn't for lack of showing people,,that is for sure. They just like and feel secure following people,, Moderator cut: deleted
Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
I will keep fighting until my last human breath. And it IS a little club, because my King Jesus said it was. There are FEW that find it. But it isn't for lack of showing people,,that is for sure. They just like and feel secure following people,Moderator cut: Orphaned
If God created an exclusive club, were jealous, egotistical, vengeful, genocidal, etc. . . . what is there to love? Why on earth would anyone want to be in His club? The desire to remain under the influence of our ancestors' primitive ignorance eludes me completely!
Some "Christians" need to spend more time worrying about their own qualifications instead of wasting their time trying to determine who should be excluded from their personal little club. When each of us stands before God to be judged, I hardly think He's going to require us to meet anybody's definition of "Christian" except His.
If God created an exclusive club, were jealous, egotistical, vengeful, genocidal, etc. . . . what is there to love? Why on earth would anyone want to be in His club? The desire to remain under the influence of our ancestors' primitive ignorance eludes me completely!
I don't want any part of a club that would accept me as a member.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
