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I'm out and about over the next few days, and I'm typing on my phone, so I can't deliver a very scholarly answer, but the word which meant "eternal" back in the day (a long time ago-->>Hi, Plato) was "aidios," and it was NEVER associated in the original scriptures with human punishment. Never. Mike, or any pastor worth his salt, should know this.
Aionios always meant temporary. God is the ainios God, or the God of the ages, but he also is immortal. We are not. We have to PUT ON immortality.
Aionios and its variations are as I have stated, used both for an indefinite period because eternal and an indefinite period but not eternal.
Further, without making an issue of his philosophy, Plato, along with others used aionios to refer to eternal things. I have supplied a sample of one of Platos writings on that link in post #3. To Plato, aionios and aidios were synonymous terms.
Aidios didn't have to be used to describe eternal punishment. Aionios or its variations were used.
Furthermore, I never even brought up punishment on the first post. Therefore, why have you? I brought up the fact that in the original languages, aionios is used to describe the eternal duration of the reign of Jesus Christ.
The assertions made by universalists that aionios should never have been translated as 'forever and ever' is false.
'Forever and ever' is simply an idiomatic expression which emphasizes the concept of eternity. It does not imply adding one eternity to another eternity.
Aionios and its variations are as I have stated, used both for an indefinite period because eternal and an indefinite period but not eternal.
Further, without making an issue of his philosophy, Plato, along with others used aionios to refer to eternal things. I have supplied a sample of one of Platos writings on that link in post #3. To Plato, aionios and aidios were synonymous terms.
Aidios didn't have to be used to describe eternal punishment. Aionios or its variations were used.
Furthermore, I never even brought up punishment on the first post. Therefore, why have you?
Lol.
Because usually you stick something in your posts like, "If you don't agree with what I'm telling you, you will suffer the consequences and off to le lac de feu for you." Basically. I'm just getting that out of the way.
I would love to comment more on this, but I'm not home right now. I'll get to this thread when I get home in a couple of days.
1) The reign of Jesus Christ is not temporary as some claim, but is forever and ever through the eternal future.
2) The Greek word Aionios and its variations - aionas, aiona, aionos, etc... are properly used with reference to things which are eternal in nature. Aionios has the meaning of an indefinite period. Either indefinite because eternal, or indefinite but not eternal. It depends upon the context.
Because of 1 Corinthians 15:24 which says, ''Then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25] For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.'', there are those who think that Jesus Christ will not rule forever.
The Bible is clear that He will rule forever along with God the Father. Compare the following passages.
Luke 1:33 'And He (Jesus) will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that. Jesus' reign will have no end and is therefore eternal - aionas.
In Isaiah 9:6-7 both the Lord's birth and His eternal reign are prohesied by Isaiah. ''For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Couselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7] There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore (olam). The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this (LORD of the armies - a title which belongs to Jesus Christ).
Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. The most emphatic way in the Greek of expressing the concept of eternity. The Greek phrase is properly brought over into the Engish with the idiomatic expression forever and ever. This does not imply adding one eternity to another eternity as some would maintain. It simply emphasizes the concept of the eternal duration of Christs reign.
It is seen in the next two verses that both God the Father and God the Son - Jesus Christ, rule together forever.
The eternal throne is that of God and of the Lamb. Revelation 22:1 'And He showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God (the Father) and of the Lamb (Jesus Christ).
Revelation 22:3 'And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servents shall serve Him:
As the Scriptures plainly state, Jesus Christ will rule forever along with God the Father. When the Millennium ends, Jesus Christ will deliver up the kingdom to God the Father and it will be the triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who rules.
Now, for those who have insisted that Jesus only rules until the end of the Millennium, if you will be honest with yourself, you will see that Jesus rules for all eternity future and you will also see that the Greek word Aionios with its variations properly denotes those things which are of an eternal nature.
Sir Mike...
You are incorrect. Heb 1:8 is NOT rendered as "to the ages of ages" (PLURAL/PLURAL) as you state. The Greek manuscripts have it in the SINGULAR/SINGULAR form as "to the age of the age". As always, you say that the PLURAL/PLURAL form EMPHATICALLY means 'eternity'. So by your logic the the SINGULAR/SINGULAR form must EMPHATICALLY mean 'half way', right?
Fact is Mike, you can care less about what the Greek scriptures say. You only care about what English word you are reading with your eyes. It is an easy mistake to make though, after reading the English for so long.
Go take this Challenge that was put forth. And give it to your Pastor/Preacher/Teacher as well.
You are incorrect. Heb 1:8 is NOT rendered as "to the ages of ages" (PLURAL/PLURAL) as you state. The Greek manuscripts have it in the SINGULAR/SINGULAR form as "to the age of the age". As always, you say that the PLURAL/PLURAL form EMPHATICALLY means 'eternity'. So by your logic the the SINGULAR/SINGULAR form must EMPHATICALLY mean 'half way', right?
Fact is Mike, you can care less about what the Greek scriptures say. You only care about what English word you are reading with your eyes. It is an easy mistake to make though, after reading the English for so long.
Go take this Challenge that was put forth. And give it to your Pastor/Preacher/Teacher as well.
It is evident that you have not studied this word very well.
Both the Biblos online Interlinear Bible and the Scripture4all online Bible have it has plural plural. The Greek/English Interlinear New Testament UBS 4TH edition, Nestle-Aland 26th edition has it singular singular. It is irrelevent. A comparison of the passages listed show that Jesus Christ reigns forever. Without end.
I am aware of your challenge. It is meaningless. Of course both the singular and plural forms of aionios are used. To try and challenge someone to prove differently is silly. Singular-singular, singular-plural, plural-plural are all used.
Jesus Christ reigns throughout the eternal future, and eis ton aionia tou aionos has been used in Hebews 1:8 whether it is ages of the ages or age of the age to describe that fact.
Now go back and read and compare the passages in the first post and if you are honest with yourself, you will have to acknowledge that Jesus' reign is eternal and that aionios or variations of the word are used to show this.
To make sure you understand what I said, it is indisputable that Jesus reigns forever and that the Greek word used to describe that fact is aionios or a variation such as aionon.
Furthermore, Plato as well as others used aionios to describe eternity. You can find a link in post #3.
Christ reigns (with those he's chosen) until he hands over the kingdom to his father. Biblical fact.
(no, God doesn't hand the kingdom to himself)
If you are unwilling to honestly compare the passages listed in the original post, including the two passages which show that both God the Father and Jesus Christ co-reign, then don't waste my time with your attempts to deny the eternal rulership of Jesus. And you are dishonoring Christ with your attempts to do so.
If you are unwilling to honestly compare the passages listed in the original post, including the two passages which show that both God the Father and Jesus Christ co-reign, then don't waste my time with your attempts to deny the eternal rulership of Jesus. And you are dishonoring Christ with your attempts to do so.
Well, I could say, "No I'm not," but you wouldn't believe me.
And using words like "no end," "everlasting," "forever and ever" doesn't mean what you're trying to make those verses say, but you know that. I'd put out a long list of verses to prove this to the folks out there, but I'm not at a computer right now.
God is immortal, the God of the ages, and Jesus was his son.
Simple stuff, really. We don't need Plato, God-man talk, or a priesthood to figure this out.
The Pharisee’s used the term eternal (aidios), but Christ condemned their teaching.
Take heed and beware of the leaven within the Pharisee’s eternal punishment and the Sadducee’s annihilationism.
Hope you had a merry Christmas and will have a happy new year.
Mike
Thanks Mike, I hope yours was Christ edifying as well.
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