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But 'Greatest' what about the brilliant argument for concerning oneself over Cain and Abel? Abel dies and the fact of belonging to the Earth is put into question for it's essential naturalness. He lived from the perspective of being cognisant of Life to share with the rest of humanity. Now it was not/ but is realized that the Life he possessed was objectively realized in the Other as the protector for his justified Existence-being alive.
If all these perfect entities decide to disobey God, why would you think it was the wrong decision. If the perfect do not make the right decisions then what does that say about your perfect God.
God is absolute perfection. And He is absolutely HOLY. His standards are absolute and He demands perfect obedience from His free will creatures. The existence of free will made it possible for His creatures to choose to rebell against God. God desired for His creatures to have free will in order to have a relationship with them based on reciprocal love.
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It seems that God himself make the wrong decision when he created mankind. He certainly says so and repented for it in Noah's day when he genocided our ass. I guess you are right. A perfect God did screw up.
God did not 'screw up'. God does not repent. What Genesis 6:5-7 says about God repenting is what is called an anthropopathism. Ascribing to God a human characteristic which He does not really have in order to by means of language of accomodation explain the divine policy of perfect and infinite God toward sin and evil, in a way which the finite mind of man can understand.
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BTW, Adam and Eve did not just physically die. God murdered them by breaking his covenant with them that said they could eat of the tree of life. That makes him a liar if the following is true.
My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of my lips.
—Psalm 89:34
God murdered them by breaking his covenant with them that said they could eat of the tree of life. That makes him a liar.
It was more like a parent, with a poisoned child, withholding the antidote.
God is seen as quite the immoral parent because of this with anyone who has a good moral sense.
I know you will not agree. Shame on you.
Regards
DL
God does not murder. God pronounces judgment on those who transgress against Him. The penalty for sin was spiritual death (loss of relationship with God) which occurred immediately, and the resulting physical death which in Adam's case was many hundreds of years later.
Nor does God lie. It was man who sinned against God and bore the consequences of that decision to disobey God.
But 'Greatest' what about the brilliant argument for concerning oneself over Cain and Abel? Abel dies and the fact of belonging to the Earth is put into question for it's essential naturalness. He lived from the perspective of being cognisant of Life to share with the rest of humanity. Now it was not/ but is realized that the Life he possessed was objectively realized in the Other as the protector for his justified Existence-being alive.
Hi Mike I've been reading your posts here and it looks like you have caught yourself in a trap. If Adam was perfect how could he, even with imagined free will, make an imperfect choice? That would make him imperfect.
Adam was perfect, perfect for the purpose he was created. That purpose was to let sin into the world and therefore death so God's plan would be advanced, the plan of creating man in his image.
Remember God saw the end before the beginning. He knew everything that was and is to occur. He had provided a savior before the fall because he knew and planned for it to happen.
I also think that Satin, who was created as a adversary for man, was created perfectly for the purpose that he was created. He was not a fallen angel. In Ezekiel 28 you claim that even though it says the king of Tyre it means Satin. In Ezekiel 28:9 It says to the king of Tyre, "You are a man" Satin is not and never was a man. Also Jesus said that Satin was liar and a murderer from the beginning. Satin does exactly what God wants him to do. In the book of Job it describes how Satin could do nothing til God told him to and then when these things occurred to Job he did not blame Satin who did it, he knew that God is always in control. He said rightly, The Lord gives and the Lord take away. He may use Satin to do it but it is God who is always in control of his creation.
One more thing you have said I find kind of a paradox is you cite Romans 8:7 that says " Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:for it is not subject to the laws of God, neither indeed can it be. " You then say that the carnal mind can choose to follow Christ or not. That is in direct opposition of the verse you had just quoted, which says the carnal mind can not choose God. Even Jesus said that No man may come to me lest the Father draws him. In other words it is not us that chooses God it is God who chooses us. Till God's Grace is upon us we can not change our carnal nature.
In Genesis we read God created and saw it was good or perfect (depending on the translation)
But it doesn't state Adam was without sin.
What is perfect? That greatly depends on the context.
For a churgeon perfection is so cure all patients.
For an army general perfection is to wipe out 10,000 enemy troops in one hour.
So to know what God calls perfect you have to know what His plan is. (Teaching according to me)
If Adam was perfect just like Father Himself then Adam would never have sinned. Father can not sin.
Father is perfect. Father called Adam perfect.
Perfect Father never sinned. Perfect Adam did sin.
Did the perfect Father create a not so perfect world?
That's a contradiction if you believe the only perfect thing can be something without sin.
My take on this is that perfect is about that creation was exactly as God intended it to be for His plan of the Ages.
Exactly as God intended-Amen.
Hebrews 5: 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. 2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. Hebrews 10:14
because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 11:40
God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Hebrews 12: 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
But Adam is the only one who ever disobeyed God. The devil "sinneth from the beginning and was never "good."
Satan is the fallen angel we know as Lucifer. He was perfect until unrighteousness was found in him. Ezekiel 28:15 'You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created, Until unrighteousness was found in you.
God said that Satan was a murderer from the beginning - That is, from the beginning of the creation of man. This refers to the seduction of Adam and Eve. Death was pronounced as the penalty for sin, Genesis 2:17. Satan deceived Eve and through her caused Adam to sin and they became subject to death, Genesis 3. As Satan was the cause of why death came into the world, he may be said to have been a murderer in that act, or from the beginning.
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Satan is described as a serpent or dragon. But no scripture indicates that he was ever an angel, only that he "masquerades" as an angel of light. But he is no angel, and never was.
To the contrary. Both Isa 14 and Eze 28 speak of Satan. He is called a cherub in Eze 28:14,16. Revelation 12:7 speaks of Satan and his angels.
Satan before he fell had had the privilege of serving as honor guard protecting the righteousness of God. He had been the anointed cherub who covered the mercy seat (Eze 28:14). The real mercy seat is in heaven. On the lid of the ark of the covenant there was a representation of the mercy seat, there were two cherub angels which covered the mercy seat. Satan had been one of the two cherubim who covered the mercy seat in heaven.
A demand that says love me or burn forever in hell does not give free will any wiggle room at all.
A demand says ignore any notion of free choice and love me or burn.
Regards
DL
In the counsel of divine decrees God decreed that all of man's decisions and the consequences of those decisions would be made certain. Having free will means that there will be outcomes to volitional choices. If you choose to break a law, you must pay the penalty for your decision to break that law. It's a matter of volitional responsibility.
All along I, and others, have said that EVERY choice has something that CAUSES them to make a certain choice. Again you prove this by your very words. For you say this....
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Originally Posted by Mike555
In the counsel of divine decrees God decreed that all of man's decisions and the consequences of those decisions would be made certain. Having free will means that there will be outcomes to volitional choices. If you choose to break a law, you must pay the penalty for your decision to break that law. It's a matter of volitional responsibility.
But earlier you state this....
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Originally Posted by Mike555
God said that Satan was a murderer from the beginning - That is, from the beginning of the creation of man. This refers to the seduction of Adam and Eve. Death was pronounced as the penalty for sin, Genesis 2:17. Satan deceived Eve and through her caused Adam to sin and they became subject to death, Genesis 3. As Satan was the cause of why death came into the world, he may be said to have been a murderer in that act, or from the beginning.
Yep....when it comes to CAUSES Mike, you are 100% correct by your own words again. Freewill by its difinition can NOT answer the question of "WHY??? or What is the reason for?" (for the answer would give you the CAUSE). For you say...
"Satan deceived Eve...." Yep she was CAUSED to do so
(Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What (Heb: Why?) is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled (Heb: seduced, decieved....THERE IS YOUR CAUSE) me, and I did eat.
"..and through her CAUSED Adam"
Yet again...another CAUSE
"As Satan was the cause of why death came into the world..."
Yet again...another CAUSE
Agian, nobody is debating whether man makes 'choices' or has a choice or not. What is being presented, once again, is that fact that WITHOUT the INFLUENCE, CAUSING, MANIPULATING of God FIRST, man will NEVER choose Him. All those you mentioned (Moses, David, Joseph, etc...) where CHOSE by God FIRST. The evidence in the bible is UNDENIABLE in this fact.
And as for Universalism being temporarily banned from CD....I did not get that from the sticky. Did any one else? All I saw was the banning of the debates on a certain subject. Just look at the subject of all the threads that were locked.
Hi Mike I've been reading your posts here and it looks like you have caught yourself in a trap. If Adam was perfect how could he, even with imagined free will, make an imperfect choice? That would make him imperfect.
Adam as created by God was humanly perfect. Adam, created in the image of God had free will and mentality. He could think and make decisions based on his thoughts. Adam could therefore choose to make a decision which was contrary to God's desire. When Satan deceived Eve in order to get to Adam, he put Adam in the position of having to choose between obeying God or staying his now fallen wife. Adam chose Eve over God.
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Adam was perfect, perfect for the purpose he was created. That purpose was to let sin into the world and therefore death so God's plan would be advanced, the plan of creating man in his image.
Adam was created to resolve the angelic conflict. Satan and the angels who fell had made a decision to do so. This was despite having been in the presence of God. God sentenced Satan to the lake of fire but the sentence will not be carried out until the end of the Millennium. God, desiring to demonstrate to His creation why the angels were without excuse for their rebellion against Him created man for the purpose of showing that a creature which was inferior to the angels and who had never been in heaven, but having free will as the angels had, could choose to obey God. Satan thought that by causing Adam to sin, he could thwart God's plan. Instead, Adam's sin only advanced God's plan to provide salvation for man and offer it to man. In human history there will be members of the human race who will answer the call of the Gospel, and there will be many who will not.
It was not God's desire that Adam sin. But He knew that He would and therefore made provision for that decision on Adam's part.
In creating the angels with free will, God knew that one third of them would fall. He desired free will creatures and therefore had to permit sin to occur. That does not mean that He desired sin to occur. //www.city-data.com/forum/chris...l-warfare.html
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Remember God saw the end before the beginning. He knew everything that was and is to occur. He had provided a savior before the fall because he knew and planned for it to happen.
See above.
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I also think that Satin, who was created as a adversary for man, was created perfectly for the purpose that he was created. He was not a fallen angel. In Ezekiel 28 you claim that even though it says the king of Tyre it means Satin. In Ezekiel 28:9 It says to the king of Tyre, "You are a man" Satin is not and never was a man. Also Jesus said that Satin was liar and a murderer from the beginning. Satin does exactly what God wants him to do. In the book of Job it describes how Satin could do nothing til God told him to and then when these things occurred to Job he did not blame Satin who did it, he knew that God is always in control. He said rightly, The Lord gives and the Lord take away. He may use Satin to do it but it is God who is always in control of his creation.
Satan was not created as an adversary for man. See above.
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One more thing you have said I find kind of a paradox is you cite Romans 8:7 that says " Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:for it is not subject to the laws of God, neither indeed can it be. " You then say that the carnal mind can choose to follow Christ or not. That is in direct opposition of the verse you had just quoted, which says the carnal mind can not choose God. Even Jesus said that No man may come to me lest the Father draws him. In other words it is not us that chooses God it is God who chooses us. Till God's Grace is upon us we can not change our carnal nature.
No it is not in opposition. There is no contradiction, and I tried to explain that. First, God has revealed Himself generally through His creation (Romans 1:18-20), and specifically through the gospel message. The carnal mind is in opposition to God. But the carnal mind of unregenerate man is handled by a decision to answer the call of the gospel. At the point of gospel hearing the Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace convicts the spiritually dead unbeliever of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8-11). God initiates the call through the gospel. Man can then either say yes or no to the gospel and therefore to Christ.
As for the believer, he is carnal everytime he chooses to sin. The remedy is as simple as choosing to name his sin to God the Father as per 1 John 1:9 and therefore being restored to fellowship under the control of God the Holy Spirit.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-21-2011 at 12:23 PM..
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