Would a Plan annul God’s & our free will? (myth, sinners)
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Eve was deceived by Satan into eating the fruit. The reason that she was able to be deceived was because she was not paying attention to what she had been taught regarding the issue and so did not understand the issue. She misquoted God's command regarding not eating of the fruit, by saying that she was not even allowed to touch the fruit. God had said nothing about touching it. And perhaps, I said perhaps, she had become bored. And she probably had a desire for the forbidden fruit. This is why Satan used her to get to Adam who would have resisted Satan had he launched a direct attack against Adam.
Adam however was confronted with having to choose between God or his now fallen wife with whom he had had a perfect soul relationship, and he chose his wife over God. God then countered Satan's attempt to thwart Him with the promise of a Savior who would redeem man from his sins. Adam believed God's promise and was saved - brought back into a relationship with God which could never again be broken in the sense of loss of salvation, by sin.
I understand that people who say that there is no free will apply a definition to it which is unwarranted. Free will simply means that you are free to choose one thing or to choose something else while reaping the benefits or being subject to the consequences of that decision.
Webster's New World Dictionary Second College Edition gives a nice simple one word definition for free will: Voluntary.
Freedom cannot exist without authority, otherwise there is anarchy. Man's free will is subject to the authority of God. He is free to choose to obey or disobey God and is subject to the consequences of his choices.
Free will does not mean as one poster once said on this forum, that if you had free will then you could drive straight down the street to the supermarket regardless of what obstacles stood in the way. Or words to that effect.
Man's free will functions under the permissive will of God and in relationship with the principle of cause and effect. God decreed in eternity past the certain futuration of all of mans choices.
Robert B. Thieme Jr. gave the following definition of the divine decree of God.
'The decree of God is His eternal, holy, wise, and sovereign purpose, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be--in their causes, courses, conditions, successions, and relations--and determining their certain futurition.'
Angelic and human free will can act contrary to God's desires. But God decided, decreed that those free will decisions would nevertheless take place. This makes human volition truly free. Man can voluntarily decide to disobey God, but must face the consequences of his disobedience.
Whew!!......that is certainly a LOT of Men's words to attempt to prove a point Mike.
Sir Mike. Please give me one CHOICE that you have EVER made that did NOT have an INFLUENCE that CAUSED you to choose it in the first place.
Sir Mike. Please give me a scripture of any DECISION that was made in the bible, that did NOT have an INFLUENCE that CAUSED them to choose it in the first place.
You also said this...
Quote:
He is free to choose to obey or disobey God and is subject to the consequences of his choices.
Sir Mike. Please define the word "FREE" in this sentence for us.
We have been through this all before sir. I am willing to go through it all again, just for you.
"Nailed between the mistakes of yesterday; and the fears of tomorrow."
But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, 'Arise and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.'' (Acts 8:26)
But a messenger of the master (properly, that of a person) spoke to Philip....
....kurios as expressed in the parables (having the meaning of master or Lord).
....as for visions and dreams, you be the judge – for the time being is short.
Whew!!......that is certainly a LOT of Men's words to attempt to prove a point Mike.
Sir Mike. Please give me one CHOICE that you have EVER made that did NOT have an INFLUENCE that CAUSED you to choose it in the first place.
Sir Mike. Please give me a scripture of any DECISION that was made in the bible, that did NOT have an INFLUENCE that CAUSED them to choose it in the first place.
You also said this...
Sir Mike. Please define the word "FREE" in this sentence for us.
We have been through this all before sir. I am willing to go through it all again, just for you.
Take care
Joe
As I have already made abundantly clear, man's free will operates in relation to the principle of cause and effect. Get over your hangup concerning the word 'free.' Free will simply means that you are free to decide between one thing or another and accepting the consequences of that decision. Free will does not operate independently of the principle of cause and effect. That should be simple enough for all to understand.
When presented with the gospel message you are caused to make a decision either for or against the gospel. You are free to make the choice of 'yes' or 'no'.
It is completely scriptural. Paul did not teach that all men will be saved. And you had to have known that I would say that.
The reason that Israel was temporarily set aside was because (and which God had always known about) they failed to carry out their responsibility to take the gospel to the gentiles. Their continued disobedience which finally expressed itself in rejecting Christ as the Messiah resulted in God interrupting the Dispensation of Israel and bringing in the dispensation of the church to whom fell the responsibility to evangelize the world. Once the church-age has run its course the dispensation of Israel will resume to finish out its final seven years - the tribulation. As a result of the judgments of the tribulation, Israel will turn back to God and will recognize finally that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that they had rejected.
In no way does it imply that those Jews who died in unbelief will be saved. The nation of Israel will be restored in belief. But all who have died in unbelief, whether Jew or Gentile, are eternally lost.
But again, my understanding is that for the time being, this issue of ET versus UR is temporarily banned on this forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
ALL of God's attributes function in perfect harmony with each other and never compromise each other.
God is sovereign and He is also veracity (truth). Therefore God cannot lie.
God's sovereignty. Psalm 83:18 'That they may know that Thou alone, whose name is the LORD, Art the Most High over all the earth.
God's veracity (truth) John 7:28 Of the Father, Jesus said, ''...but He who sent Me is true.''
God's perfect holiness makes it impossible for God to lie. He cannot do it because He cannot be other than Who and What He is.
It is God's desire that all men saved. But not apart from the condition of the Gospel. God cannot save anyone who refuses to place his faith in Christ for salvation.
God's will functions in three ways. 1) Overruling, 2) Directive, 3) Permissively.
Man's free will functions under God's permissive will in which God allows man to act in disobedience to Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
As I have already made abundantly clear, man's free will operates in relation to the principle of cause and effect. Get over your hangup concerning the word 'free.' Free will simply means that you are free to decide between one thing or another and accepting the consequences of that decision. Free will does not operate independently of the principle of cause and effect. That should be simple enough for all to understand.
When presented with the gospel message you are caused to make a decision either for or against the gospel. You are free to make the choice of 'yes' or 'no'.
Mike,
people are not free to choose. See Acts 9, brother. Saul had to be knocked off his high horse. (As we all do.) And that's God's doing, not ours. (You give yourself too much credit!)
I agree 110 percent. God calls things that are not as though they were. He sees the end from the beginning, and man and satan have NEVER been "out of His control."
Mike,
I know you can't hear this, but I'll say it anyways, because I like you.
The name "Satan" and "devil" and "serpent" etc... are not mentioned in the OT verses you cite.
The reason? They are not talking about Satan! They are verses directed at man.
Man is what God is concerned with. Man is who God came to save (and succeeded). Man is the one who receives the message of salvation. Man is the one God made in His image, and the one God plans to render like Himself.
What you propose are nothing more than doctrines of devils.
But the Gospel is for man, and man alone.
God planted the tree of knowledge in the "midst" of the garden, where Adam could see it day after day after day after day after day... until he fell.
And it was part of God's plan, because God placed Jesus Christ as Savior before the world began.
God knows what He's doing; He's not losing any battles, He's not counting the cost; He's not worried of being rejected or defeated; He's fulfilling His plans of salvation for all mankind. Starting with Jesus Christ.
And He's winning!
Blessings,
Brian
It is you who will not listen. Isa 14 and Ezekiel 28 are indeed talking about Satan. The real power behind the throne of Tyre and Babylon was Satan.
Whereas in Eze 28:1-10 it is the actual king who is being addressed, at verse 11, it is Satan who is being referred to. The human king of Tyre was never in Eden, the garden of God. Nor did the human king of Tyre ever have the seal of perfection. Nor was the human king of Tyre ever the annointed churub who covered the mercy seat of God in heaven. And the human king of Tyre was never blameless in his ways from the day he was created - the human king was not created, he was born. These things are references to Satan.
In Isaiah 14:13-14, those are the five 'I wills' that resulted in Satan's moral fall, and his condemnation.
Because you reject fundamental doctrine and prefer to allegorize the blazes out of the Bible, you will reject this out of hand. That is your choice.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-22-2011 at 02:47 AM..
Given all the facts, how many people do you think insane enough to choose hell?
If there are any ensane enough, what will God do with those poor sick bastards? Send them to hell?
Regards
DL
Many people want nothing to do with God. Many people do not want to be answerable to God. Many people are to pre-occupied with themselves and their lives to give a thought about God. And many people have no idea of the seriousness of hell. And there are people who just don't care.
These people will, if they die without Christ, be eternally separated from God.
Mike,
people are not free to choose. See Acts 9, brother. Saul had to be knocked off his high horse. (As we all do.) And that's God's doing, not ours. (You give yourself too much credit!)
Many people want nothing to do with God. Many people do not want to be answerable to God. Many people are to pre-occupied with themselves and their lives to give a thought about God. And many people have no idea of the seriousness of hell. And there are people who just don't care.
These people will, if they die without Christ, be eternally separated from God.
As I have already made abundantly clear, man's free will operates in relation to the principle of cause and effect. Get over your hangup concerning the word 'free.' Free will simply means that you are free to decide between one thing or another and accepting the consequences of that decision. Free will does not operate independently of the principle of cause and effect. That should be simple enough for all to understand.
When presented with the gospel message you are caused to make a decision either for or against the gospel. You are free to make the choice of 'yes' or 'no'.
Mike, the only thing you have made abundantly clear, is that you dont know what you are talking about with FREEwill. Again I ask...
Sir Mike. Please give me one CHOICE that you have EVER made that did NOT have an INFLUENCE that CAUSED you to choose it in the first place.
Sir Mike. Please give me a scripture of any DECISION that was made in the bible, that did NOT have an INFLUENCE that CAUSED them to choose it in the first place.
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...that is certainly a LOT of Men's words to attempt to prove a point Mike. 
