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I don't agree with Adam Clarke's commentary. However, he contradicts both of you and Mike with some of this statements here such as:
You do realize that Adam Clarke in his commentary said that Faith is a Gift?
He also says:
"Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe."
trettep....I know what Adam Clarke said...the point of the issue here whether the grammar in Eph 2 calls for that, along with the usage and syntax the disciples and Christ Himself were recorded in regards to "faith" is more corporately applied, apart from man's faith itself. The point of Adam Clarke's commentary is, without Christ, there is nothing to believe....it is by His faith...that we do, and He, the gift, the salvific man who gave us salvation and grace, without without either of them, we could not have faith. Nice try, but you are still not comprehending and continuing to import one for the other. You can't conclude that faith is a gift, because grace and salvation are. Faith is the "human response" to what has been given. Without what has been given, human can't respond in faith!
trettep....I know what Adam Clarke said...the point of the issue here whether the grammar in Eph 2 calls for that, along with the usage and syntax the disciples and Christ Himself were recorded in regards to "faith" is more corporately applied, apart from man's faith itself. The point of Adam Clarke's commentary is, without Christ, there is nothing to believe....it is by His faith...that we do, and He, the gift, the salvific man who gave us salvation and grace, without without either of them, we could not have faith. Nice try, but you are still not comprehending and continuing to import one for the other. You can't conclude that faith is a gift, because grace and salvation are. Faith is the "human response" to what has been given. Without what has been given, human can't respond in faith!
Do you acknowledge that Faith is a Gift from God? It is a Yes or No question.
Ironmaw...your wrong about everything we are saying, just as I believe you are wrong about what the scriptures are teaching. God only saves...God only has immortality. God desires worship and man to come to Him. If that was not the case, then I would be inclined to agree with you, but it isn't. We have been over this before again and again...and still, you are oblivious to it...or blind...who knows? Maybe your paradigm shuts the curtains on it....On FREE WILL, the Calvinists are right...so are the Arminians. You just have to saturate it, apart from debating it, and decide whether it is, what is clear to so many of us. Think about that one for a change.
Blessings to you.
If God wanted everyone to worship him presently, he would draw allpeople to himself presently, as Christ said, no man can come to me except the fathe draw him.
God needs nothing, there is nothing we can do that adds to Gods glory. Everything that we do that honors God is in fact him working within us to do what pleases him. IF God wanted everyone to do what pleases him he would work within everyone to do it ...
When the times are right, God will draw all people to himself in Christ, and his spirit will make everyone new, and work within all to bring about their acceptance of Christ as their savior.
Perhaps i am blinded to some truth you are seeing, and then again perhaps you are the one who is blinded, of course i believe it is the later, but only God really knows for certain and one day he will bare witness of the truth concerning these things before the entire creation.
One thing is for very likey, we will know when we die ...
If God wanted everyone to worship him presently, he would draw allpeople to himself presently, as Christ said, no man can come to me except the fathe draw him.
God needs nothing, there is nothing we can do that adds to Gods glory. Everything that we do that honors God is in fact him working within us to do what pleases him. IF God wanted everyone to do what pleases him he would work within everyone to do it ...
When the times are right, God will draw all people to himself in Christ, and his spirit will make everyone new, and work within all to bring about their acceptance of Christ as their savior.
Perhaps i am blinded to some truth you are seeing, and then again perhaps you are the one who is blinded, of course i believe it is the later, but only God really knows for certain and one day he will bare witness of the truth concerning these things before the entire creation.
One thing is for very likey, we will know when we die ...
I agree.
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw [Greek - drag] him (Joh 6:44)
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:8-10).
God needs nothing, there is nothing we can do that adds to Gods glory. Everything that we do that honors God is in fact him working within us to do what pleases him. IF God wanted everyone to do what pleases him he would work within everyone to do it ..
Ironmaw....the rest of your post is well taken, and thank you for a thought out response. But I want to address the above really quick...you said that one day God will draw all people to Himself...yet above you said there is nothing more that can be done to add to God's glory? Which is it? If drawing all people to Himself is for His glory and praise...then how can nothing be added to His glory....isn't it, Glory, summed up in Jesus Christ? If God wanted everyone to do what He pleases, as in the final "eschaton" you speak of, then why isn't it so now, and if that were so now, then adding to God's glory is resolved in Christ, His work on the cross, and Him bearing our sins?
Also, since you believe there is a second coming still future...which I believe you haven't fully stepped in to Preterism, I remember you were researching much on Partial P....but either way, bot futurist and PP alike, both concur that there is a second coming, then how can you apply Christ drawing all men to Himself, after He comes, when the scriptures clearly state, that Christ, at His second coming, only comes to save those select people from the world, who "await Him - Heb 9:28?
No. It is the salvation which is the gift of God. Not the faith. Refer to post #203.
Rom 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Faith is a gift ... Salvation is a gift, and we are saved through faith. Both faith and grace are equal parts of the free gift of salvation.
And it is God who gives us the ability to hear and comprehend and understand the spiritual things of the gospel of Christ.
I believe that you have been deceived and are believing a lie, thinking too highly of yourself as if you are the one who chose Christ and not Christ who chose you, as if it was Christ who was lost and you found him, rather than you who were lost and Christ found you ...
Repentance is a gift(Act 5:31, 2Ti 2:25), faith is a gift, hearing is a gift, understanding is a gift, believing is a gift. It is 100% the work of God in Christ and 0% the work of men.
Whoever is not from God cannot hear gods word, only those whom God has quickened by his spirit can hear Gods word, as it is written concerning those who cannot hear ...
Jhn 8:47
"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
And again ...
Mat 13:13
This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
and yet again ...
Deuteronomy 29:4
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
If the lord does not give you a mind that understands and eyes that see and ears that hear, you will not understand or see or hear. Understanding, seeing, and hearing are also gifts of God according to the scriptures.
The carnal minded man cannot hear or understand the things of the spirit of God, it doesn't matter if you tie them up and read the new testament to them for 10 years ...
Until the spirit of God moves in someones life and opens their eyes and their ears and gives them repentance so that they will come to an understanding of the truth, it is impossible for them to even truly comprehend the gospel message, much less receive it and believe.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-23-2011 at 02:19 PM..
Ironmaw....the rest of your post is well taken, and thank you for a thought out response. But I want to address the above really quick...you said that one day God will draw all people to Himself...yet above you said there is nothing more that can be done to add to God's glory? Which is it? If drawing all people to Himself is for His glory and praise...then how can nothing be added to His glory....isn't it, Glory, summed up in Jesus Christ? If God wanted everyone to do what He pleases, as in the final "eschaton" you speak of, then why isn't it so now, and if that were so now, then adding to God's glory is resolved in Christ, His work on the cross, and Him bearing our sins?
I really dont understand the trouble you are having with what i wrote.
I wrote that there is nothing that WE can do to add to his glory, everything that we do that Honors God is his work within us.
He is the one that is doing whatever it is that glorifies him, not us.
Quote:
Also, since you believe there is a second coming still future...which I believe you haven't fully stepped in to Preterism, I remember you were researching much on Partial P....but either way, bot futurist and PP alike, both concur that there is a second coming, then how can you apply Christ drawing all men to Himself, after He comes, when the scriptures clearly state, that Christ, at His second coming, only comes to save those select people from the world, who "await Him - Heb 9:28?
That is at the time of his coming, but there is much to come after Christ returns, still ages in fact. The millennial kingdom after his return, the the serpent is released for a season to deceive the nations, and then Finally all things will be made subject to Christ so God can be all in all, but this will not happen until after Christs return and then after the nations are deceived again.
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