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jghorton, let me present your argument from a different perspective, and I humbly ask you to consider that the many who teach eternal hopelessness are deceived and the few who teach reconciliation for all may be on to something.
I'm continually amazed by the number of folks on the Christian forum who isolate bits and pieces of scripture that seems to say what they want to hear .... while blatantly ignoring hundreds of passages that clearly say something else! Such is the case with the scripturally-baseless notion that non-believers who refuse to believe and trust in Jesus Christ during this lifetime ... will be tortured/tormented forever in endless pain all the while Jesus stands by claiming to be the very definition of 'love' and commanding His followers to 'love'.
The scriptures quite clearly say God will have all men to be saved, Jesus is the savior of the world, God will reconcile all things, God will restore all things, God will be all in all, death will be defeated, and all will be made alive. Yet these things are ignored in favor of the idea of "endless torture".
Its almost unconscionable for someone to strip out obscure symbolic passages like references to the Lake of fire in Revelations and build an entire doctrine around it, all the while ignoring that endless torture/torment chamber would be the most unloving thing imaginable, especially from a creator who is love itself.
How can you NOT see that the Bible clearly says those without Jesus Christ are eternally condemned???
John 3:15 -- that whoever believes in Him should not perishbut have eternal life John 3:16 -- For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:18 -- He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Acts 4:12 - Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven [Jesus] given among men by which we must be saved.” Rom 6:23 --For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. John 3:3 -- Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Matthew 23:33 --Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Mark 3:29 --but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— Luke 23:40 -- But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? John 5:29 --and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. Rom 8:1 --[ Free from Indwelling Sin ] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Rev 20:15 --And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 21:8 --But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Psalm 9:17 - The wicked shall be turned into hell,And all the nations that forget God. Psalm 55:15 - Let death seize them; Let them go down alive into hell, For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them. Prov 5:5 - Her feet go down to death, Her steps lay hold of hell. Prov 7:27 - Her house is the way to hell, Descending to the chambers of death. 1 Tim 3:6 - not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Proverbs 15:24 -- The way of life winds upward for the wise, That he may turn away from hell below. Proverbs 27:20 --Hell and Destruction are never full; So the eyes of man are never satisfied. Isaiah 14:9 --“ Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. Prov 9:18 - But he does not know that the dead are there, That her guests are in the depths of hell. Prov 15:11 -Hell and Destruction are before the LORD; So how much more the hearts of the sons of men. Ezekiel 31:16 --I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. Ezekiel 32:21 --The strong among the mighty Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell With those who help him: ‘ They have gone down, They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’ Matthew 5:22 --But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:29 -If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 5:30 -And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Matthew 10:28 --And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 18:9 --And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 23:15 --“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. Mark 9:43 -- If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— Mark 9:45 --And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— Mark 9:47 -- And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— Luke 12:5 -- But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! 2 Peter 2:9-109then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. Psalm 37:20 -- But the wicked shall perish;And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away. Psalm 68:2 -- As smoke is driven away,So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 2 Thes 2:9-11 --9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
How can you NOT see that the Bible clearly says God will save all men???
jghorton,
Well for one thing the words "eternal" and "hell" are suspiciously translated. Some English bibles have different translations for those words.
"Condemnation" means judgment. Judgment is good because it teaches righteousness.
And "perishing" is nothing that Jesus cannot overcome, since He destroys death.
And for another thing, I can post an even longer list of scriptures that show the salvation of all. But I won't do that because it would be too long for this post. I'll just post a link to them instead:
Jesus provided redemption (from sin and death) for ALL ... who will believe!
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
jghorton,
Well for one thing the words "eternal" and "hell" are suspiciously translated. Some English bibles have different translations for those words.
"Condemnation" means judgment. Judgment is good because it teaches righteousness.
And "perishing" is nothing that Jesus cannot overcome, since He destroys death.
And for another thing, I can post an even longer list of scriptures that show the salvation of all. But I won't do that because it would be too long for this post. I'll just post a link to them instead:
Thanks for the link Legoman, I've often wondered where folks got the notion that Christ had to die ... so that ALL could be saved (anyway).
You have no argument from me regarding God's amazing, wonderful love and grace -- or the fact that they apply to ALL and that Christ gave His life so that ALL could be saved.
But, the very life and death of Christ were necessary (according to God) to fully reveal God's love and Grace to ALL, so that ALL could freely choose ... to love --- or not love God; to believe --- or not believe God; to trust their lives to Christ .... or not to trust their lives to Christ, etc. While even 'faith is a gift of God" ... even a 'gift' must be accepted to be received.
The precursor to Christ was the Exodus from Egypt where ALL had the opportunity to believe God and faithfully pass under the "blood of the sacrificial lamb which they, not God, placed over their doorpost". Couldn't God have simply saved everyone anyway?
Jesus Christ is the "lamb of God who came to take away the sin of the world." --- But, Christ was unnecessary, if God's plan was to ignore sin and save everyone with or without Christ anyway. If scripture consistently (precept upon precept) said, in any way, shape or form, that ALL would be saved ... believers and non-believers alike, ... with or apart from Christ, --- then, praise God, that would be God's plan! But, in over 30-years of preaching and Bible teaching, sometimes 4-5 times per week, I've never seen anything like that in scripture.
But, hypothetically, 'suppose I've just been blind and wrong for all these years. Then, it really doesn't matter to me, because according the the UR philosophy, I'll be saved and spend eternity with God anyway! However, suppose you ... and those the UR folks seem so eager to convert are wrong (Even you have got to admit that there is plenty of scripture to suggest that possibility exists). Then where does that leave you... and them???
Jesus provided redemption (from sin and death) for ALL ... who will believe!
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
jghorton,
Well for one thing the words "eternal" and "hell" are suspiciously translated. Some English bibles have different translations for those words.
"Condemnation" means judgment. Judgment is good because it teaches righteousness.
And "perishing" is nothing that Jesus cannot overcome, since He destroys death.
And for another thing, I can post an even longer list of scriptures that show the salvation of all. But I won't do that because it would be too long for this post. I'll just post a link to them instead:
Thanks for the link Legoman, I've often wondered where folks got the notion that Christ had to die ... if God's plan was to save EVERYONE anyway(?).
You have no argument from me regarding God's amazing, wonderful love and grace -- or the fact that they apply to ALL and that Christ gave His life so that ALL could be saved.
But, the very life and death of Christ were necessary (according to God) to fully reveal God's love and Grace to ALL, so that ALL could freely choose ... to love --- or not love God; to believe --- or not believe God; to trust their lives to Christ .... or not to trust their lives to Christ, etc. While even 'faith is a gift of God" ... even a 'gift' must be accepted to be received.
The precursor to Christ was the Exodus from Egypt where ALL had the opportunity to believe God and faithfully pass under the "blood of the sacrificial lamb which they, not God, placed over their doorpost". Couldn't God have simply saved everyone anyway?
Jesus Christ is the "lamb of God who came to take away the sin of the world." --- But, Christ was unnecessary, if God's plan was to ignore sin and save everyone with or without Christ anyway. If scripture consistently (precept upon precept) said, in any way, shape or form, that ALL would be saved ... believers and non-believers alike, ... with or apart from Christ, --- then, praise God, that would be God's plan! But, in over 30-years of preaching and Bible teaching, sometimes 4-5 times per week, I've never seen anything like that in scripture.
But, hypothetically, 'suppose I've just been blind and wrong for all these years. Then, it really doesn't matter to me, because according the the UR philosophy, I'll be saved and spend eternity with God anyway! However, suppose you ... and those the UR folks seem so eager to convert are wrong (Even you have got to admit that there is plenty of scripture to suggest that possibility exists). Then where does that leave you... and them???
But, hypothetically, 'suppose I've just been blind and wrong for all these years. Then, it really doesn't matter to me, because according the the UR philosophy, I'll be saved and spend eternity with God anyway! However, suppose you ... and those the UR folks seem so eager to convert are wrong (Even you have got to admit that there is plenty of scripture to suggest that possibility exists). Then where does that leave you... and them???
It leaves "us" believing in the "Faithfulness of Christ" having confidence in the truth; the existence or reliability of that which he was sent to accomplish.
[It] is called having faith in him, according to those who believe him.
But, hypothetically, 'suppose I've just been blind and wrong for all these years. Then, it really doesn't matter to me, because according the the UR philosophy, I'll be saved and spend eternity with God anyway! However, suppose you ... and those the UR folks seem so eager to convert are wrong (Even you have got to admit that there is plenty of scripture to suggest that possibility exists). Then where does that leave you... and them???
I would recommend that you read Romans 11. It clearly states ALL Israel shall be saved, do you really believe every Israelite without fail will make a choice for Jesus ?
Salvation is made possible solely by the death of Jesus Christ upon the cross. Apart from Jesus' work on the cross, and your faith in Him, there is no possibility of salvation.
And if you died never having heard of Him, it's just too damn bad.
Thanks for the link Legoman, I've often wondered where folks got the notion that Christ had to die ... if God's plan was to save EVERYONE anyway(?).
You have no argument from me regarding God's amazing, wonderful love and grace -- or the fact that they apply to ALL and that Christ gave His life so that ALL could be saved.
But, the very life and death of Christ were necessary (according to God) to fully reveal God's love and Grace to ALL, so that ALL could freely choose ... to love --- or not love God; to believe --- or not believe God; to trust their lives to Christ .... or not to trust their lives to Christ, etc. While even 'faith is a gift of God" ... even a 'gift' must be accepted to be received.
The precursor to Christ was the Exodus from Egypt where ALL had the opportunity to believe God and faithfully pass under the "blood of the sacrificial lamb which they, not God, placed over their doorpost". Couldn't God have simply saved everyone anyway?
Jesus Christ is the "lamb of God who came to take away the sin of the world." --- But, Christ was unnecessary, if God's plan was to ignore sin and save everyone with or without Christ anyway. If scripture consistently (precept upon precept) said, in any way, shape or form, that ALL would be saved ... believers and non-believers alike, ... with or apart from Christ, --- then, praise God, that would be God's plan! But, in over 30-years of preaching and Bible teaching, sometimes 4-5 times per week, I've never seen anything like that in scripture.
But, hypothetically, 'suppose I've just been blind and wrong for all these years. Then, it really doesn't matter to me, because according the the UR philosophy, I'll be saved and spend eternity with God anyway! However, suppose you ... and those the UR folks seem so eager to convert are wrong (Even you have got to admit that there is plenty of scripture to suggest that possibility exists). Then where does that leave you... and them???
I was about to come back into this thread and answer a couple of folks, but I see I don't need to. You've said it better than I ever could.
And, you've stated a Biblical precept which I suspect the UR folks will have a hard time refuting: "But, Christ was unnecessary, if God's plan was to ignore sin and save everyone with or without Christ anyway."
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How can you NOT see that the Bible clearly says those without Jesus Christ are eternally condemned???
