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But Hawyaw took David's son...How fair is that?...He suffered for the sin of his father...It was not his fault he was born of an adultress union...Why did he have to pay for his father's sin with his own life?...And why DID all those pure innocent children have to pay for the sins of their parents and drown in a flood?...Boy, it just ain't fair of Hawyaw to do that...
Similar examples could be said of Job's family and servants, too. Gone in a flash, cut down in the prime of their lives, for the fundamental purpose of testing Job:
Job 1:13 And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother’s house:
Job 1:14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
Job 1:15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother’s house:
Job 1:19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
The doctrine of original sin is used to teach that we are totally incapable of choosing God. This is a false doctrine. God, within His sovereignty, given us the free will to choose or reject Him, obey or disobey.
So it is not whether or not this effects my walk with God or not. It's about disproving a false doctrine.
So many people give up and won't even consider becoming a christian because they don't believe they are one of the chosen, or they believe they are and therefore eat, drink andbe merry because they're in and cannot lose their salvation. I wonder how many souls have been led down this path of destruction?
Katie
That is not true...people do not just give up...Those that do, I've noticed, 'confessed' Christianity for all the wrong reasons...So, now today, WE have it all figured out and the great theologic minds of the past 2000 years were wrong...WOW!...
Yes, I agree that many misinterpret what predestination means. God foreknows those who will be saved and those who won't but that is not what predistination means. He seeks to rescue in earnest all who are lost from their fate even though He has foreknowledge that they will reject. He makes honest attempts to save and therefore He can not be accused of being unjust which is impossible for Him to be. Some just resist the attempt at rescue and God proves He is just by His attempts for all to see.
Paul is witness and so are we to Gods fair attempts to save all:
ACTS 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you:but seeing you put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
O, now we are messing with the word 'predestination'...
Who said I was offended? Label me whatever you wish. I'm a follower of the Triune God. That's the only label I wear.
I believe, as God tells us, that we are the clay and he is the Potter.
I really don't wish to label you either...I'm asking what you believe concerning divine reprobation (if you believe in that concept) and how you see it presented in the scriptures.
Is this something you can share with us?
I believe we're the clay and God is the potter too. Do you believe the potter is good, and makes what is good, even from marred clay?
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Even marred clay (as it were) can also be retooled by God. Do you believe this?
Thanks for your reply. I wasn't really speaking about your not responding (not everyone responds to posts). I just thought you had asked certain questions that I wondered if I had addressed even a little bit.
But regarding the fact that God takes us from a spiritually dead state and makes us alive...this would have to be God's work, alone. Any result or manifestation of this would be a different matter.
If once God gives us a new heart (with which we can now believe), or gives us a new spirit (with which we can now truly receive the gospel message unto salvation), then we will be able to "come" and "believe" and "repent" and "take the water of life freely", and so on.
The command, in effect, goes out to all. But only those whom God has enabled will take heed. This is how God distinguishes His people. The free will issue really has to be gauged in the light of this information. Unless we see that God must regenerate us, we will technically credit ourselves with making the right decision. If we are dead, such a thing could never be possible.
I sincerely believe that the account of the raising of Lazarus is an uncanny picture of how God gives life to a dead sinner. The parallel is exactly the same. Unless God enables us by giving us that life, we will remain dead and unresponsive.
Some feel that the new heart, the new spirit, the being "born again" all comes after we choose to "accept" Christ. To believe this way effectively makes us sovereign, and then God simply follows our lead. The simple biblical fact of our being "dead in trespasses and sins" is enought to allow us to believe that we are incapable of choosing God of our own (natural) free will. If I am dead I can do nothing of myself. But if God makes me alive, then everything changes, and the responses seen from me are simply the result of what God has first done in me.
We have to wonder what is meant by this "good work" that God has begun in us that He promises to complete until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6). This brings to mind (for me) where Hebrews 12:2 refers to Christ as the "author and finisher of our faith". It may not seem so, but if the bottom line in our believing on Christ unto salvation is our free choice to accept or reject, then we, perhaps unwittingly, presume to take credit for making the right choice...as opposed to giving God all the credit and all the glory for any and every aspect of our salvation
Good post...May be that those that take the credit for their Faith are those that are false christians...as I would say Simon was...
No, believing alone does not quite get you where you want to be. I have always believed, but until I came to know Him, I had no idea. If you do believe the Bible, then you have to say this is true. And you have to receive Him. The Bible reminds us that very few will enter heaven, paradise, eternal life, however you choose to phrase. But I think seventy five percent of Americans at least think they are bound for this place they know nothing of. So both scenarios cannot be true. Until you know Him, you know no true joy. No, God would never send an innocent to an unending torture. God is love. And with a beautiful family, I certainly thought I knew all about love. But when finally, at age 37, I looked myself in the eyes, and into my heart, and I tell you my love for my Lord and everything He loves is so immesnse, you cannot understand unless you know. My heart swells and tears of joy run everytime I think of how much love is waiting for us all. And my heart also breaks and the tears flow again when I think of all of those I love who do not know. When you become a whole person, it ceases to be a belief. It is now knowledge.
Similar examples could be said of Job's family and servants, too. Gone in a flash, cut down in the prime of their lives, for the fundamental purpose of testing Job:
Job 1:13 And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother’s house:
Job 1:14 And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
Job 1:15 And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Job 1:18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother’s house:
Job 1:19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
You did not have to post the Scripture, I know it well...But, Thank You...How unfair was that?...Just to test Job?...
I really don't wish to label you either...I'm asking what you believe concerning divine reprobation (if you believe in that concept) and how you see it presented in the scriptures.
Is this something you can share with us?
I believe we're the clay and God is the potter too. Do you believe the potter is good, and makes what is good, even from marred clay?
Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Even marred clay (as it were) can also be retooled by God. Do you believe this?
The Potter makes from the same lump...You know the rest of the story...
The Potter makes from the same lump...You know the rest of the story...
Yes, and that clay can be retooled after it's served it's useful purpose in the previous state.
Do you not see this?
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