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There is a big difference in saying we are born with a sinful nature and we are born with sin. Sin is something we choose to do. Babies are not capable of knowing right from wrong. They cannot reason. Babies have no sin and we know they don't inherit sin (Ezekiel 18:20). Therefore, they are innocent.
We may be born with the propensity to sin, but that does not mean we are incapable or so totally depraved that we cannot choose God. That's the point of the thread.
Kate
I would possibly be able to see your point, if, I could see the children in the picture as toddlers, but I cant. I see them old enough to walk and run around, which tells me a whole different story than what your thinking, since I wasn't born yesterday...lol.
Yes Bama, but you believe everyone is going to heaven right? Universalist?
You missed a very important point. Those who are made alive are those who are IN CHRIST. There's only one way to get in Christ and that is through baptism.
Katie
I believe the scriptures proclaim universalism. Those IN Christ shall be made alive. Here is what the text says:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
The word made alive is in the Greek future tense. A very important concept here. Not all are alive in Christ now. However, the text says ALL shall be made alive, future tense.
And, everything, repeat: everything, has been created IN Christ:
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
All things were created IN Christ, and, IN Christ all things will be made alive (future tense).
That is why I believe all infants, children, and everyone else for that matter, will ultimately, in the end, when all is said and done, be alive in Christ, to the glory of God.
Why is this so difficult to believe? The text clearly states it to be so.
ok, one more question. How does this innocent sinless at nature birth end? At what point does the sinful nature kick in?
OK, change of plans, one more question. When did you get trapped into meaningless theological confusion, like many other unfruitfull works displayed here on the forum? Please, don't take me the wrong way, like I'm trying to be rude. That's just not the Katie I thought I'd ever see. it's like... oooh noooo, not Kaaatieee toooo!!! lol
How is it that anyone can miss the glory of the Gospel....That very glory of Christ shining so brilliantly from it? I can't believe that you really do not see this kmg...
I forgot to mention in my post to you that the Bible speaks in terms of God choosing/election of us without any merit or worthiness in us. It does not speak of us choosing God, unless we are talking in terms of cooperation, after we have been converted. Eg. Joshua 23. Also, you may be shocked but there is no reference to man having free will in the Bible. In fact, because we are born with a sinful nature, in unbelief, we cannot come to by our own Spiritual powers. We are born spiritually blind dead and enemies of God. God must give us the new birth by the power of the HOly Spirit, and make us spiritually alive.
Prairie,
Again, I appreciate your response but respectfully disagree with you. The only thing you said that I wholeheatedly agree with is your very last sentence. We are born anew and made alive by the power of the Holy Spirit. I think we would agree that this happens when we are baptized into Christ.
I can agree that we are born with the propensity to sin. But we are not born with sin. Big difference. I believe babies are innocent. They do not inherit sin (Ez. 18:20).
Those who are said to be predestined are those who are in Christ. The Bible doesn't teach that some are predestined to heaven and others to eternal damnation. This would make God a respecter of persons. It would also make God unfair and unjust.
You say we have no free will. Then why is the offer for the person who is thirsty to come made to whosoever will? Over and over we see people making the choice to follow Jesus.
How is it that anyone can miss the glory of the Gospel....That very glory of Christ shining so brilliantly from it? I can't believe that you really do not see this kmg...
No Bama, what you can't believe is that I don't believe in universalism. I don't believe everyone is going to heaven, and quite frankly, I don't know how anyone can read a Bible and come up with such a doctrine.
Jesus died for all men. But we have a choice to accept or reject His sacrifice.
Prairie,
Again, I appreciate your response but respectfully disagree with you. The only thing you said that I wholeheatedly agree with is your very last sentence. We are born anew and made alive by the power of the Holy Spirit. I think we would agree that this happens when we are baptized into Christ.
I can agree that we are born with the propensity to sin. But we are not born with sin. Big difference. I believe babies are innocent. They do not inherit sin (Ez. 18:20).
Those who are said to be predestined are those who are in Christ. The Bible doesn't teach that some are predestined to heaven and others to eternal damnation. This would make God a respecter of persons. It would also make God unfair and unjust.
You say we have no free will. Then why is the offer for the person who is thirsty to come made to whosoever will? Over and over we see people making the choice to follow Jesus.
Katie
Children of the devil is a very scriptural fact, as well as predestination. Katie, do you think John the Baptist could have aborted the mission?
An example of children of the devil would be the giants in the Old Testament, who were born from the fallen angels, per the Book of Enoch - which all the prophets read, as well as Yahushua and the Apostles / disciples.
The elect, or predestined children of God are those, sure factors of light, that God pre-ordains to walk this earth for insurance of light on earth at all times.
ok, one more question. How does this innocent sinless at nature birth end? At what point does the sinful nature kick in?
OK, change of plans, one more question. When did you get trapped into meaningless theological confusion, like many other unfruitfull works displayed here on the forum? Please, don't take me the wrong way, like I'm trying to be rude. That's just not the Katie I thought I'd ever see. it's like... oooh noooo, not Kaaatieee toooo!!! lol
I think it's different for each person. I don't have an answer for when we go from sinful nature to actually sinning. But here's a question for you to ponder. Was Adam born with a sinful nature? I'm thinking he had to be. Yet he was created in God's image. Hmmmm......
O'D I don't have all the answers. Wish I did.
As for being trapped....Didn't know I was.
I'm still learning about this total depravity and inability to choose God thing. Right now, I'm still studying but can't come up with proof to support it. So here's what I'm attempting to do.
1. List all scriptures related to innocence of babies pro and con
2. List all scriptures related to free will pro and con.
3. List all scriptures related to predestination pro and con
4. Make a two column list of pro/con
5. Pray for wisdom and knowledge do rightly divide
6. Share what I learn.
No Bama, what you can't believe is that I don't believe in universalism. I don't believe everyone is going to heaven, and quite frankly, I don't know how anyone can read a Bible and come up with such a doctrine.
Jesus died for all men. But we have a choice to accept or reject His sacrifice.
Now I can't believe you can't see that Bama.
Kmg
I see Christ and life proclaimed in the Gospel, not death, suffering and torment. Christ tells us to proclaim that Gospel to the world, to all the world.
How is it that you don't see that goodness of God revealed in the Gospel, for all?
Yes, not all are born of the Spirit now, but what makes you say they never will be? The text clearly says In Christ shall all be made alive, future tense.
You do realize that what we perceive in our heart (in our innermost being) will ultimately be revealed in what we tell others, right?:
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
How is it that you don't bring forth good things for all, as the text clearly does?
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