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Either the Bible says what you are saying, or it doesn't, and in this case it does not.
PS Drop the insults. It's getting a little tiresome to see them in every post you make.
It says what I am saying...everyone that has the eyes to see and the ears to hear KNOWS! what the Spirit is saying...
Talk about getting tired! ! !...I wish you had to put up with you and your confusion in the word and never ending deceiving posts like I do!...then you would know what being tired is.
It says what I am saying...everyone that has the eyes to see and the ears to hear KNOWS! what the Spirit is saying...
Talk about getting tired! ! !...I wish you had to put up with you and your confusion in the word and never ending deceiving posts like I do!...then you would know what being tired is.
Again, either it says the son was never saved, or it doesn't, and it DOES NOT say it. You added it because it fits your beliefs.
It simpy says the son was at his fathers house. He was with God. And then he had a falling away, and left and lived the life of a sinner. And then he repented and returned to God.
This is my last post to you now. I asked for respect, and you gave me more disrespect. You need to stop and figure out which spirit it is that is talking through you. The other reason I am not posting for a while, is the fact that the Miami Dolphins are on the field.
Can OSAS be true when the scriptures do not agree!
We have covered two scriptures (Galatians 5:4, Hebrews 6:1-8) that disprove OSAS and have given the OSAS believers plenty of opportunity to provide answers to show how these scriptures are consistent with the OSAS belief.
There have been several attempts by city-data members to provide their interpretations, but no real scriptural analysis to support them. We have had external web-links provided to theologians’ explanations which have included some scriptural analysis, but it proved to be impotent. They attempted to suggest lexical meanings to words in the scripture that were at best improbable. If you followed those explanations closely you will also note many unsupported statements and many contradictions even within a single presentation.
We know that this has not motivated the OSAS believers to consider the possibility that there are scriptures that contradict their belief. They have repeatedly said so, and have attempted to insult us will labels theologians think are condemnatory, and some have gone so far as to say our salvation may be in question, or that relying on scripture is no better than Satan, all because we will not accept their doctrine of men.
There are those who revere theologians, their philosophical works, and their schools where you can study the history of the doctrines of men. However the inspired writings of the Bible are the foundation of true Christian belief.
It has been a vigorous and tenacious discussion.
Let’s look at some other scriptures that are not so direct in its statement about salvation being lost by falling away, but one that helps identify that salvation is not incontrovertibly secure.
Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. (NASB)
Is this just one scripture with this message?
Matthew 24:13
"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. (NASB)
Is Matthew the only one to teach salvation can be lost without endurance to the end?
Luke 21:19
"By your endurance you will gain your lives. (NASB)
And Paul also continues to communicate this same message
Romans 2:7
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. (NASB)
Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. (NASB)
Why this a repeated message?
Is it because endurance in doing the will of God is important?
Do you think this message is relevant?
By not having endurance, but abandoning the will of God you are saved anyway?
These verses, along with the previous verses and many more to come, DIRECTLY, EXPLICITLY and CONCLUSIVELY contradict the OSAS doctrine of men.
PLEASE
I look forward to hearing the OSAS interpretations to explain away the EXPLICIT message contained in the scriptures.
AND We will carefully examine the scriptures and compare the OSAS interpretations against the actual scriptures, as before.
We have covered two scriptures (Galatians 5:4, Hebrews 6:1-8) that disprove OSAS and have given the OSAS believers plenty of opportunity to provide answers to show how these scriptures are consistent with the OSAS belief.
There have been several attempts by city-data members to provide their interpretations, but no real scriptural analysis to support them. We have had external web-links provided to theologians’ explanations which have included some scriptural analysis, but it proved to be impotent. They attempted to suggest lexical meanings to words in the scripture that were at best improbable. If you followed those explanations closely you will also note many unsupported statements and many contradictions even within a single presentation.
It was in fact you who were given plenty of opportunity to understand that Hebrews 6:1-8 and Galatians 5:4 are not even talking about salvation, much less being able to lose it.
I was the one who first brought up the context of Hebrews 6:4 in post #33. I originally learned what the passage meant from the teaching of Robert B. Thieme JR. who was pastor of Berachah Church of Houston Tx, for over 50 years. His isagogical, categorical and exegetical teaching became a worldwide ministry.
Go to the link above, locate and listen to the following audio or video lessons.
Hebrews 061b
Danger: Falling Away - Part 1. Hebrews 6:2-7. August 3, 2006
Hebrews 062b
Danger: Falling Away - Part 2. Hebrews 6:2-4. August 10, 2006
Hebrews 063b
How to be a Productive Believer. Hebrews 6:6-8. August 17, 2006
Hebrews 064b
Spiritual Fruit. Hebrews 6:7-8. August 24, 2006
Hebrews 065b
Abiding in Christ. Hebrews 6:7-8, John 15:1-3. August 31, 2006
Including my own mention of Hebrews 6:4, that makes five different sources all saying that the passage is not about being able to lose your eternal salvation.
Then in post #61 I posted Dr. Dean's study on Galatians.
Click the link above and find the classes listed below.
98-Galatians-42
Falling From Grace. Galatians 5:1-4. March 28, 1999
98-Galatians-43
Eternal Security. Galatians 5:4. April 04, 1999
98-Galatians-44
Lordship Salvation. Galatians 5:4. April 11, 1999
Now I will provide Dr. C.I. Scofield's comment on Hebrews 6:4.
1(6:4) The warning in vv.6-8 has been understood in various ways. The major interpretations are: (1) The warning is directed to some of the Jewish people who professed to be believers in Christ but stopped short of true faith in Him after advancing to the threshold of salvation. (2) The admonition presents a hypothetical case; if one could ''fall away'' (v.6), it would be impossible to renew him again to repentance; for, in such an instance, it would be necessary for Christ to be crucified a second time. Obviously this will not occur (Heb.10:12,14); thus to fall away is impossible. (3) The warning is directed toward believers who have fallen into sin to such an extent that they have crucified to themselves the Son of God afresh (v.6) and are therefore disapproved and will lose their reward (see 1 Cor.9:27,note). And (4) the warning is to those who are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and are in danger of falling away, through unbelief or sin, and losing their salvation.
The correct rendering of the clause translated ''and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit'' (v.4) is ''and were going along with the Holy Spirit.'' The warning is issued to those who have been instructed and even moved by the Holy Spirit, but have never commited themselves to Christ. The entire passage turns on the word ''better'' in v.9. If all that is written in vv.1-5 were equivalent to salvation, there could be nothing better. The experiences outlined may precede and even accompany salvation, but they do not always result in salvation. Scripture abundantly afirms the Christian's eternal security; therefore this passage must not be interpreted as teaching that believers in Christ can lose their salvation. See Jn.3:15-16,36; 10:27-30; Rom.8:35,37-39; Eph.1:12-14; 4:30; Phil.1:6; Heb.10:12-14; 1 Pet.1:3-5.
New Scofield Reference Edition, 1967 Edition, notes on Hebrews 6:4, p.1315.
The author of Hebrews is writing to Jewish believers who have gone back into Judaism. He has not told them that they lost their salvation; he has told them that they are dull of hearing and need to be retaught the basic doctrines (Heb 5:12). Nevertheless, he urges them to leave behind the elementary teachings of Christ and to press on to spiritual maturity. He tells them that this will be done if God allows it. He recognizes that while it is practically humanly impossible to get them to repent (to change their mind), God may get their attention through divine discipline and they might then get back on the right track.
Quote:
We know that this has not motivated the OSAS believers to consider the possibility that there are scriptures that contradict their belief. They have repeatedly said so, and have attempted to insult us will labels theologians think are condemnatory, and some have gone so far as to say our salvation may be in question, or that relying on scripture is no better than Satan, all because we will not accept their doctrine of men.
There are those who revere theologians, their philosophical works, and their schools where you can study the history of the doctrines of men. However the inspired writings of the Bible are the foundation of true Christian belief.
You have continually presented theologians as teaching doctrines of men, and of attempting to explain away Scripture.
Yet, when I told you in my own thread in post #68 ---> https://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...-security.html that you are not qualified to evaluate or to criticize top notch theologians and pastors, you attempted to defend yourself with the following statement in post #70. ''I have studied one-on-one with priests, reverends, and pastors from many denominations.''
Quote:
It has been a vigorous and tenacious discussion.
Let’s look at some other scriptures that are not so direct in its statement about salvation being lost by falling away, but one that helps identify that salvation is not incontrovertibly secure.
Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. (NASB)
Is this just one scripture with this message?
Matthew 24:13
"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. (NASB)
Is Matthew the only one to teach salvation can be lost without endurance to the end?
Luke 21:19
"By your endurance you will gain your lives. (NASB)
Those passages are not referring to eternal salvation. In the Epistles, more often then not, when salvation is mentioned it is not talking about eternal salvation, but to deliverance from some thing or another. Deliverance from a useless spiritual life for example. Or deliverance from physical death. Or deliverance out of persecution.
Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13Mark 13:13, and Luke 21:19 are talking about the faithful tribulational believer's physical deliverance from the tribulation to go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. There will be many tribulational martyrs, but the tribulational believer who endures to the end of the tribulation will go into the Millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by the Dallas Seminary Faculty, on page 77 cocerning Matthew 24:13 states the following...
'Those who remain faithful to the Lord until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is delivered (Matthew 24:13). This does not refer to a personal self effort at endurance that results in one's eternal salvation but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the tribulation. They will enter the kingdom in physical bodies.'
It should be obvious thatMatthew 10:22 is referring to deliverance from persecution. The context of the passage is about persecution and brother delivering up brother to death, and a father his child, and a child his parents, causing them to be put to physical death.
Those passages have both a near term and a long term focus. For instance, it is obvious that in Matt. 10:22, the apostles are in view, but Jesus' words will have their fullest manifestation in the tribulation.
Quote:
Quote:
And Paul also continues to communicate this same message
Romans 2:7
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. (NASB)
Romans 2:7 as well as 2:13 are hypothetical. Paul is not teaching that salvation by works is possible. Instead, he is showing that all men are lost. Paul shows in Romans 3:19-20 that no man has persisted in doing good or is a doer of the word. Paul shows in Romans 3:21-8:39 that sinners are justified entirely by faith alone in Christ alone.
Quote:
Quote:
Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. (NASB)
Why this a repeated message?
Is it because endurance in doing the will of God is important?
Do you think this message is relevant?
By not having endurance, but abandoning the will of God you are saved anyway?
Hebrews 10:36 is stating the necessity of perseverence for eternal rewards, not eternal life.
Quote:
These verses, along with the previous verses and many more to come, DIRECTLY, EXPLICITLY and CONCLUSIVELY contradict the OSAS doctrine of men.
No they do not as has been explained above.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-04-2011 at 10:23 PM..
It was in fact you who were given plenty of opportunity to understand that Hebrews 6:1-8 and Galatians 5:4 are not even talking about salvation, much less being able to lose it.
I was the one who first brought up the context of Hebrews 6:4 in post #33. I originally learned what the passage meant from the teaching of Robert B. Thieme JR. who was pastor of Berachah Church of Houston Tx, for over 50 years. His isagogical, categorical and exegetical teaching became a worldwide ministry.
Go to the link above, locate and listen to the following audio or video lessons.
Hebrews 061b
Danger: Falling Away - Part 1. Hebrews 6:2-7. August 3, 2006
Hebrews 062b
Danger: Falling Away - Part 2. Hebrews 6:2-4. August 10, 2006
Hebrews 063b
How to be a Productive Believer. Hebrews 6:6-8. August 17, 2006
Hebrews 064b
Spiritual Fruit. Hebrews 6:7-8. August 24, 2006
Hebrews 065b
Abiding in Christ. Hebrews 6:7-8, John 15:1-3. August 31, 2006
Including my own mention of Hebrews 6:4, that makes five different sources all saying that the passage is not about being able to lose your eternal salvation.
Then in post #61 I posted Dr. Dean's study on Galatians.
Click the link above and find the classes listed below.
98-Galatians-42
Falling From Grace. Galatians 5:1-4. March 28, 1999
98-Galatians-43
Eternal Security. Galatians 5:4. April 04, 1999
98-Galatians-44
Lordship Salvation. Galatians 5:4. April 11, 1999
Now I will provide Dr. C.I. Scofield's comment on Hebrews 6:4.
1(6:4) The warning in vv.6-8 has been understood in various ways. The major interpretations are: (1) The warning is directed to some of the Jewish people who professed to be believers in Christ but stopped short of true faith in Him after advancing to the threshold of salvation. (2) The admonition presents a hypothetical case; if one could ''fall away'' (v.6), it would be impossible to renew him again to repentance; for, in such an instance, it would be necessary for Christ to be crucified a second time. Obviously this will not occur (Heb.10:12,14); thus to fall away is impossible. (3) The warning is directed toward believers who have fallen into sin to such an extent that they have crucified to themselves the Son of God afresh (v.6) and are therefore disapproved and will lose their reward (see 1 Cor.9:27,note). And (4) the warning is to those who are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and are in danger of falling away, through unbelief or sin, and losing their salvation.
The correct rendering of the clause translated ''and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit'' (v.4) is ''and were going along with the Holy Spirit.'' The warning is issued to those who have been instructed and even moved by the Holy Spirit, but have never commited themselves to Christ. The entire passage turns on the word ''better'' in v.9. If all that is written in vv.1-5 were equivalent to salvation, there could be nothing better. The experiences outlined may precede and even accompany salvation, but they do not always result in salvation. Scripture abundantly afirms the Christian's eternal security; therefore this passage must not be interpreted as teaching that believers in Christ can lose their salvation. See Jn.3:15-16,36; 10:27-30; Rom.8:35,37-39; Eph.1:12-14; 4:30; Phil.1:6; Heb.10:12-14; 1 Pet.1:3-5.
New Scofield Reference Edition, 1967 Edition, notes on Hebrews 6:4, p.1315.
The author of Hebrews is writing to Jewish believers who have gone back into Judaism. He has not told them that they lost their salvation; he has told them that they are dull of hearing and need to be retaught the basic doctrines (Heb 5:12). Nevertheless, he urges them to leave behind the elementary teachings of Christ and to press on to spiritual maturity. He tells them that this will be done if God allows it. He recognizes that while it is practically humanly impossible to get them to repent (to change their mind), God may get their attention through divine discipline and they might then get back on the right track.
You have continually presented theologians as teaching doctrines of men, and of attempting to explain away Scripture.
Yet, when I told you in my own thread in post #68 ---> https://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...-security.html that you are not qualified to evaluate or to criticize top notch theologians and pastors, you attempted to defend yourself with the following statement in post #70. ''I have studied one-on-one with priests, reverends, and pastors from many denominations.''
Those passages are not referring to eternal salvation. In the Epistles, more often then not, when salvation is mentioned it is not talking about eternal salvation, but to deliverance from some thing or another. Deliverance from a useless spiritual life for example. Or deliverance from physical death. Or deliverance out of persecution.
Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13Mark 13:13, and Luke 21:19 are talking about the faithful tribulational believer's physical deliverance from the tribulation to go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. There will be many tribulational martyrs, but the tribulational believer who endures to the end of the tribulation will go into the Millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by the Dallas Seminary Faculty, on page 77 cocerning Matthew 24:13 states the following...
'Those who remain faithful to the Lord until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is delivered (Matthew 24:13). This does not refer to a personal self effort at endurance that results in one's eternal salvation but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the tribulation. They will enter the kingdom in physical bodies.'
It should be obvious thatMatthew 10:22 is referring to deliverance from persecution. The context of the passage is about persecution and brother delivering up brother to death, and a father his child, and a child his parents, causing them to be put to physical death.
Those passages have both a near term and a long term focus. For instance, it is obvious that in Matt. 10:22, the apostles are in view, but Jesus' words will have their fullest manifestation in the tribulation.
Romans 2:7 as well as 2:13 are hypothetical. Paul is not teaching that salvation by works is possible. Instead, he is showing that all men are lost. Paul shows in Romans 3:19-20 that no man has persisted in doing good or is a doer of the word. Paul shows in Romans 3:21-8:39 that sinners are justified entirely by faith alone in Christ alone.
Hebrews 10:36 is stating the necessity of perseverence for eternal rewards, not eternal life.
Matthew 7:21-23 Totally Destroys the notion of a saved person not losing their's salvation and if you aren't sure what the text says heren it is.
Matt 7:21-23 Not everyone that says Lord , Lord : shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven , but he that doeth the Will of My Father which Is In Heaven.
Many will say unto me in that day Lord , Lord did we not Prophesied In Thy Name ? and in thy name cast out DEVILS , and in thy name done many Wonderful Works ?
And then will if profess unto them, I Never Knew YOU: Depart from me YOU That WORK Iniquity.
This verse shows that people who clearly are saved and have Prophesied , Cast Out DEVILS who no one can do without the Power Of The Holy Spirit , and Done Many Christ Like Wonderful Works ( Can't) Maintain Intimacy With JESUS The Bridegroom In A State Of Unsubmission And Disobediants..Thus Christ Said Depart From Me I Never Knew You ( Because FAITH IS ALWAYS NOW FAITH)...and all of the Things that a person does in their's past can be canceled by their PRESENT ACTIONS.
Matthew 7:21-23 Totally Destroys the notion of a saved person not losing their's salvation and if you aren't sure what the text says heren it is.
Matt 7:21-23 Not everyone that says Lord , Lord : shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven , but he that doeth the Will of My Father which Is In Heaven.
Many will say unto me in that day Lord , Lord did we not Prophesied In Thy Name ? and in thy name cast out DEVILS , and in thy name done many Wonderful Works ?
And then will if profess unto them, I Never Knew YOU: Depart from me YOU That WORK Iniquity.
This verse shows that people who clearly are saved and have Prophesied , Cast Out DEVILS who no one can do without the Power Of The Holy Spirit , and Done Many Christ Like Wonderful Works ( Can't) Maintain Intimacy With JESUS The Bridegroom In A State Of Unsubmission And Disobediants..Thus Christ Said Depart From Me I Never Knew You ( Because FAITH IS ALWAYS NOW FAITH)...and all of the Things that a person does in their's past can be canceled by their PRESENT ACTIONS.
Jesus says "I Never Knew YOU". The key word there is NEVER. Those people were NEVER saved. If they had been saved then Jesus would not say He never knew them, because obviously He would have known them while they were saved.
Thanks. I should clarify the following statement I made in post #335 so that no one can claim a contradiction.
'Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13 Mark 13:13, and Luke 21:19 are talking about the faithful tribulational believer's physical deliverance from the tribulation to go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. There will be many tribulational martyrs, but the tribulational believer who endures to the end of the tribulation will go into the Millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth.'
Though there will be many faithful tribulational believers who are martyred, those faithful believers who are not martyred will go into the Millennial kingdom in their physical bodies. Aparently there will be believers who are not faithful and will be killed, not martyred. They will not lose their salvation, but will be taken to heaven in disgrace.
Matthew 7:21-23 Totally Destroys the notion of a saved person not losing their's salvation and if you aren't sure what the text says heren it is.
Matt 7:21-23 Not everyone that says Lord , Lord : shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven , but he that doeth the Will of My Father which Is In Heaven.
Many will say unto me in that day Lord , Lord did we not Prophesied In Thy Name ? and in thy name cast out DEVILS , and in thy name done many Wonderful Works ?
And then will if profess unto them, I Never Knew YOU: Depart from me YOU That WORK Iniquity.
This verse shows that people who clearly are saved and have Prophesied , Cast Out DEVILS who no one can do without the Power Of The Holy Spirit , and Done Many Christ Like Wonderful Works ( Can't) Maintain Intimacy With JESUS The Bridegroom In A State Of Unsubmission And Disobediants..Thus Christ Said Depart From Me I Never Knew You ( Because FAITH IS ALWAYS NOW FAITH)...and all of the Things that a person does in their's past can be canceled by their PRESENT ACTIONS.
Jesus says "I Never Knew YOU". The key word there is NEVER. Those people were NEVER saved. If they had been saved then Jesus would not say He never knew them, because obviously He would have known them while they were saved.
How can JESUS who has ALL KNOWLEDGE With One Exception The Day That The World Will End NOT KNOW A PERSON , He Has Numbered The Hair On OURS HEAD. KNEW is Like The Word Know in the book of GENESIS Discussing the relationship of ADAM and EVE (Intimacy).
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Can OSAS be true when the scriptures do not agree!
