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Jesus used terminology that the Jews would understand. Judaism understood Gehenna to be a place where the wicked went.
The Jews also understood Jesus was not the Messiah. Are we to believe them on that too?
Quote:
Intregate all the passages which speak on the subject of what happens to those who die never having received Christ as Savior and be honest with yourself as to what the Bible says about it. The entire Bible is the mind of Christ.
I have. Jesus never used the modern concept of hell.
There is not one place in the bible that says if one does not receive Christ as Saviour that due to that, they will go to hell.
The Jews also understood Jesus was not the Messiah. Are we to believe them on that too?
You don't understand what I'm saying even though it was clear enough. I will leave it with what I have already said.
Quote:
I have. Jesus never used the modern concept of hell.
There is not one place in the bible that says if one does not receive Christ as Saviour that due to that, they will go to hell.
You speak of one place.
You must take all the passages which speak of the issue of believing on Christ and the consequences of unbelief, and all the passages which speak of the lake of fire, or Gehenna - that place of eternal torment mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15. And put them together and be honest with yourself.
But you have no intention of doing so, and so I have spent enough time on this.
Simply go back to verse 10. Integrate all the passages in the Bible which speak on the subject and be honest with yourself as to what the Bible teaches. Those who die never having believed on Jesus Christ are eternally lost. Refer to Daniel 12:2.
Hi, verses 11-15 were shared. Vs 10 states:
10and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. (Young's Literal)
Even if you go with translations which translate this verse as "forever and ever" a question to consider is , what is "forever and ever" ? How can it be more than "forever" if forever means forever and we know that some words that have been translated as "forever" "eternal" "everlasting" in some translations do not mean this, as revealed in many scriptures.
"eternal damnation"
On words that have been translated as “eternal”, “forever”, “incurable” in the scriptures
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.
God bless.
Daniel 12:2
2`And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (YLT)
10and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. (Young's Literal)
Even if you go with translations which translate this verse as "forever and ever" a question to consider is , what is "forever and ever" ? How can it be more than "forever" if forever means forever and we know that some words that have been translated as "forever" "eternal" "everlasting" in some translations do not mean this, as revealed in many scriptures.
"eternal damnation"
On words that have been translated as “eternalâ€, “foreverâ€, “incurable†in the scriptures
Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
16:53-55).
Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).
The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).
The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).
Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.
The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).
The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.
God bless.
Daniel 12:2
2`And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (YLT)
No. Not age-during. Those who believe in Christ have God's own eternal life imputed to them.
1 John 5:11 'And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12] He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.'
Jesus Christ is God and as such He has eternal life, not some temporary age-during life. Those who believe in Christ have the same eternal life as Jesus has. Though it is given to him at the moment he believes in Christ, it is eternal life because it is God's very own eternal life.
And those who die without having received Christ as Savior will never have God's eternal life imputed to them. Instead they will live forever eternally separated from God. Not age-during. The issue is having the imputation of God's own eternal life, or not having God's own eternal life. The only opportunity to receive eternal life through faith in Christ is in this life. There is no opportunity after you die.
1 John 5: 11and this is the testimony, that life age-during did God give to us, and this -- the life -- is in His Son; (YLT)
Believers have aionios life. Aionios means, "of or pertaining to an age or ages" Jesus has defined aionios life as knowing God, the only True God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. (John 17:3)
Aionios life is what believers have now today and in the age to come. We are promised immortality when we are resurrected. This is when we will live forever. We are speaking of 2 different things.
John 3 13Do not wonder, my brethren, if the world doth hate you; 14we -- we have known that we have passed out of the death to the life, because we love the brethren; he who is not loving the brother doth remain in the death. 15Every one who is hating his brother -- a man-killer he is, and ye have known that no man-killer hath life age-during in him remaining (YLT)
1 John 5:11-12
And this is the testimony: God has given usaionios-life, andthis life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Rom 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Believers have the life of the ages, life during the ages, and this life consists of knowing God, the only True God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. It is the highest life that the Creator has given to the creature.
Life (Zoe) =the principle of life in the spirit and soul; expressing all of the highest and best which Christ is and which He gives to the saints (believers) (Key Word Study Bible)
We have a relationship with God today, in this age and in the age to come. We can know the Creator today. We are walking with God by faith, have been forgiven, have been set free from the slavery to sin, can be overcomers, will rule and reign with Him, have His Holy Spirit dwelling within us, have His power to live right today, are being transformed into His image, and we are to be lights in the world. We are the people of God. Believers have passed out of death and into life because we have aionios life, the life of knowing God, the life of the ages. We are no longer lost, slaves to sin, and we can walk with God victoriously in this age and in the age to come. This the aionios life.
Believers have life during the ages. Most people do not have this life and many will perish in this age and in the age to come. Many will experience the severe judgments of God which are the judgments of God during the ages. Ages have a beginning and they have an end. The scriptures refer to past ages, the present age, and ages to come. They cannot be eternal if they have a beginning and an end.
There was "a secret concealed from the aions" (ages) (past) (Eph.3:9)
There was "the preparation of the aions"(ages) (past) (Heb.11:3)
There is "the present wicked aion" (age)(present) (Gal.1:4)
There is "the conclusion of the current aion" (age) (present) (Matt 28:20)
There will be "the comingaion" (age)(future) (Luke 18:30)
There will be "the oncoming aions" (ages)(future) (Eph.2:7)
We can lose the life of knowing God today, in this age. Colossians 1:21-23 says that we will be presented holy, blameless, beyond reproach if we continue in the faith firmly Colossians says that believers who have aionios life, that life of the ages and during the ages, have been promised immortality.Immortality is not the same as aionios life.
1 Corinthians 15:
50 50And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; 51lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (aphthartoi), and we -- we shall be changed: 53for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption (aphtharsian), and this mortal to put on immortality; (athanasian) 54and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; 55where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
We will receive immortality when our bodies are raised never to die again and we will be with God forever. Aionios life is the life we have today, life during the ages and eventually we will receive immortality.
In addition to this glorious promise, Jesus will subject all to Himself one day so that God may be all in all. All will know God then because He will be in all. This is the goal. The same all who died in Adam will be made alive in Christ. Jesus is undoing what happened when the first Adam sinned and the consequences of that sin on all mankind. One day death itself will be abolished, or made of no effect, and all will have immortality. (1 Cor. 15) Believers are the first fruits of the process.
.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-15-2011 at 05:26 PM..
Believers have aionios life. Aionios means, "of or pertaining to an age or ages" Jesus has defined aionios life as knowing God, the only True God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. (John 17:3)
Aionios life is what believers have now today and in the age to come. We are promised immortality when we are resurrected. This is when we will live forever. We are speaking of 2 different things.
John 3 13Do not wonder, my brethren, if the world doth hate you; 14we -- we have known that we have passed out of the death to the life, because we love the brethren; he who is not loving the brother doth remain in the death. 15Every one who is hating his brother -- a man-killer he is, and ye have known that no man-killer hath life age-during in him remaining (YLT)
1 John 5:11-12
And this is the testimony: God has given usaionios-life, andthis life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
Rom 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Believers have the life of the ages, life during the ages, and this life consists of knowing God, the only True God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. It is the highest life that the Creator has given to the creature.
Life (Zoe) =the principle of life in the spirit and soul; expressing all of the highest and best which Christ is and which He gives to the saints (believers) (Key Word Study Bible)
We have a relationship with God today, in this age and in the age to come. We can know the Creator today. We are walking with God by faith, have been forgiven, have been set free from the slavery to sin, can be overcomers, will rule and reign with Him, have His Holy Spirit dwelling within us, have His power to live right today, are being transformed into His image, and we are to be lights in the world. We are the people of God. Believers have passed out of death and into life because we have aionios life, the life of knowing God, the life of the ages. We are no longer lost, slaves to sin, and we can walk with God victoriously in this age and in the age to come. This the aionios life.
Believers have life during the ages. Most people do not have this life and many will perish in this age and in the age to come. Many will experience the severe judgments of God which are the judgments of God during the ages. Ages have a beginning and they have an end. The scriptures refer to past ages, the present age, and ages to come. They cannot be eternal if they have a beginning and an end.
There was "a secret concealed from the aions" (ages) (past) (Eph.3:9)
There was "the preparation of the aions"(ages) (past) (Heb.11:3)
There is "the present wicked aion" (age)(present) (Gal.1:4)
There is "the conclusion of the current aion" (age) (present) (Matt 28:20)
There will be "the comingaion" (age)(future) (Luke 18:30)
There will be "the oncoming aions" (ages)(future) (Eph.2:7)
We can lose the life of knowing God today, in this age. Colossians 1:21-23 says that we will be presented holy, blameless, beyond reproach if we continue in the faith firmly Colossians says that believers who have aionios life, that life of the ages and during the ages, have been promised immortality.Immortality is not the same as aionios life.
1 Corinthians 15:
50 50And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; 51lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (aphthartoi), and we -- we shall be changed: 53for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption (aphtharsian), and this mortal to put on immortality; (athanasian) 54and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, `The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; 55where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
We will receive immortality when our bodies are raised never to die again and we will be with God forever. Aionios life is the life we have today, life during the ages and eventually we will receive immortality.
Jesus will subject all to Himself one day so that God may be all in all. All will know God then because He will be in all. One day death itself will be abolished, or made of no effect, and all will have immortality. (1 Cor. 15) Believers are the first fruits of the process.
.
God bless.
There is no such thing as age-during life. Again, God has eternal life and that eternal life is imputed to the person who believes in Christ who Himself is God the Second Person of the trinity. The resurrection of the body is an entirely different issue than the eternal salvation of the soul which is given at the moment of faith in Christ.
Physical death will be abolished. Not the second death which is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.
Believers have the life of knowing God during the ages. Aionios means, "of or relating to an age" and an age is not eternal in that it has a beginning and an end. We know that many references to eternity in the scriptures do not mean eternal or forever. But believers who have the life during the ages will live forever when they are given immortalility. If people remain in a second death for all of eternity, then death will not have been abolished, and it is described as the last enemy. Previous to this, those who are Christ's will have already been given immortality or made alive (1 Corin.) But death is described as the last enemy so there will still be those remaining in death, until it is abolished or made of no effect. There then remains one more group to be made alive, those who will be made subject to Christ when death is abolished or made of no effect. Sin and death which infected the creation when Adam sinned will be undone when Jesus restores all to the Father. Believers are the first fruits of the process.
Romans 8:
"12So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh;
13for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;
14for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;
15for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, `Abba -- Father.'
16The Spirit himself doth testify with our spirit, that we are children of God;
17and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ -- if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us;
19for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;
20for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] -- in hope,*
21that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; 22for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now"
*hope-elpis-expectation
Whoever experiences the second death (lake of fire) is a part of the creation. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-15-2011 at 05:48 PM..
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