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I want to give a fairly complete answer to why babies are born already spiritually dead. Remember though that anyone who dies without ever having the ability to comprehend the concept of God is automatically saved based on the finished work of Christ on the cross.
You are not going to find a passage which directly states that. You have to understand the principle that because the entire human race was seminally in Adam - he is the federal head of the human race, WRONG the entire human race bears the consequences of his original sin. God did this out of grace. The principle is that condemnation must precede salvation. You right here are setting up a man made precept.
Adam was indeed created perfect. God who is perfect cannot create anything which is imperfect.
Adam's original relationship with God was dependent upon him obeying God's command to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God gave man volition and volition needs to have something to work with. Adam had to be given the opportunity to obey or to disobey God, and the tree was that opportunity. The moment he disobeyed that command as God had always known that he would, he died spiritually. Satan thought that he had won his case against God when Adam fell and that God would have to reverse His sentencing of Satan to the lake of fire. But all Adam's disobedience did was to advance God's predetermined plan WRONG [ B] (Acts 2:23). [/b] God immediately condemned Adam and the woman (she wasn't yet called Eve, until after the fall), and then just as quickly gave the gospel promise of the Messiah who was to come (Gen 3:15). Both Adam and Eve believed the promise and were then eternally saved never to again be in danger of breaking their eternal relationship with God through sin. WRONG
And so, God put the entire human race into one basket, un WRONGder the umbrella of grace by immediately condemning every person the moment they are born, so that all they have to do to be eternally saved is to simply place their faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Adam didn't have eternal security before the fall.WRONG His relationship with God was dependent on obedience. But once he was condemned and then believed the promise of the coming Messiah he was entered into a new and unbreakable eternal relationship with God, though his relationship with God in time would involve discipline for disobedience.
Therefore the condemnation of the entire human race including the new born baby is an act of grace. WRONGBeing already condemned, a person needs only to respond to the gospel through faith alone in Christ alone in order to enter into an eternally secure relationship with God.
The book of Romans does teach that everyone is condemned on the basis of Adam's original sin (Romans 5:18-19).
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
This verse is the supposed proof text to show that we are born with sin. But if one examines it closely, it does not say that Adam's sin was passed on. To claim that it does is a gross misrepresentation of what the scripture says.
1. SIN entered the WORLD through Adam since he was the first to sin. No one sinned before him. He, Adam, introduced sin.
2. Spiritual death spread to all men because all men (not babies) sin. SPIRITUAL DEATH (not sin) passed upon all men and why? Because all have sinned. There you have the reason! Not because Adam sinned, but because WE ALL sin. This verse DOES NOT say that sin was passed on to all men.
3. The wages of sin is spiritual death, not physical death.
4. Physical death is not the result of our sin. If it were, none of us would live past our youth, or beyond when we know right from wrong. Physical death was decreed when Adam sinned.
Katie
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Read verse 19. It says that by one man's disobedience (that man is Adam) we were made sinners. How you going to explain that one?
If the early church is to be more biblical they would have taught "original death." It was death that passed through into all mankind (Romans 5:12), not sin.
Sin did and by sin death did. Read verse 19:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Why don't you try substituting the word 'just' for the word 'fair' and see how it sounds? Here. I will do it for you.
If God was just, He should treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our inquities.
That is what you are really saying. You are saying that God is unjust because He doesn't treat us as our sins deserve. I had already answered your claim. I told you that Jesus paid the price for our sins.And therefore it would be unfair, it would be unjust if God did repay us for our inquities when Jesus already was judged for our personal sins.
Would it be just, would it be fair if God judged us for sins that Jesus was sent into the world to be judged for? Anyone want to answer that?
I never thought that you would have a problem with "faith is a gift from God" ... since when have you thought that there was some saving merit in yourself that God should make it possible for you to be saved.
"For the gift is not like the trepass" ... people deserve to die because they earned the wage that accompanies being conceived "in sin" Psalm 51:5. Since the gift is not like trespass, then those who have faith, have it not because they deserved it.
Just exactly what do you think it means that we are saved by grace ?... ( which the term "grace" is God's underserving love).
So to answer the question in context .... Would it be just, would it be fair if God judged us for sins that Jesus was sent into the world to be judged for?
A: Isaiah 53
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. ...
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
Yes... the injustice that Jesus took upon himself was the iniquity of us all that we deserved.
I never thought that you would have a problem with "faith is a gift from God" ... since when have you thought that there was some saving merit in yourself that God should make it possible for you to be saved.
"For the gift is not like the trepass" ... people deserve to die because they earned the wage that accompanies being conceived "in sin" Psalm 51:5. Since the gift is not like trespass, then those who have faith, have it not because they deserved it.
Just exactly what do you think it means that we are saved by grace ?... ( which the term "grace" is God's underserving love).
So to answer the question in context .... Would it be just, would it be fair if God judged us for sins that Jesus was sent into the world to be judged for?
A: Isaiah 53
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. ...
We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
Yes... the injustice that Jesus took upon himself was the iniquity of us all that we deserved.
Twin.spin, in post #53 in my reply to you, I said the following. 'Faith in Christ is non-meritorius. The merit is in Jesus Christ. Faith indeed receives the offer of the free gift of salvation. But you must make the decision to place your trust in Christ in response to the gospel message. That is how you receive the gift of salvation.'
Why then do you make this accusation? 'since when have you thought that there was some saving merit in yourself that God should make it possible for you to be saved.'
And the answer to my question concerning if it would be just for God to judge us for sins that were already judged at the cross is 'NO'. It would not be just for God to judge again sins which were already previously judged. Sins which Jesus Christ already paid the price for. That is why the unbeliever at the great white throne will be judged on the basis of his works. His sins will never be mentioned as they are not an issue because of the cross.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-21-2011 at 02:37 AM..
Salvation is not based on deeds. So it doesn't matter that babies performed no sinful action.
Deeds will be judged, but they will not affect one's eternal destiny.
Salvation is based on relationship.
My point is that there are no scriptural exceptions for babies, including unborn ones, under any circumstances for anything, contrary to what people try to say. The problem is that most people seem to be geared to thinking the worst when they hear certain words. "OMG how could God judge a baby" I have heard that from people.
It will be one of the greatest gifts we all will receive, that includes babies born and unborn, to be judged by God. We need to start believing that God is great and not some monster lurking in the dark waiting for us.
Yeah yeah, I know people don't come out and say that, but when someone says to me that they can't wait till God smites me while he stands by Gods side watching, or that some baby is damned because it didn't have the capacity to believe, you go ahead and tell me some do not believe in a monster.......
Our salvation is assured because it is of God not because of us in any capacity and thats how he rolls.
Our journey can suffer because of what we do, God doesn't promise that we can't make a mess of things along the way.
Twin.spin, in post #53 in my reply to you, I said the following. 'Faith in Christ is non-meritorius. The merit is in Jesus Christ. Faith indeed receives the offer of the free gift of salvation. But you must make the decision to place your trust in Christ in response to the gospel message. That is how you receive the gift of salvation.'
Decision theology ( which this is becoming about) ultimatly makes coming to faith a good work when you say "what you have to do". You may say "Faith indeed receives the offer of the free gift of salvation" ... however "But you must make the decision" indicates that decision theoloy is in fact actually proclaiming that salvation is the result of your ability to make yourself spiritually alive.
How much more clearer can I make it ...
All people are conceived naturel enemies of God. They are DOA spiritually upon conception. Humanity is not conceived with at best a neutral spiritual disposition toward God.
God's Word makes it very clear that the emphasis that decision theologists make is unscriptural when God says:
"the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so."
Decision theology is a false teaching ... scripture teaches that the sinful mind that one is conceived with makes you hostile (not neutral, not begin with an innocent sinless mind) incapable of making yourself spiritually alive.
Mike, you were conceived with a sinful mind not a neutral mind. "In sin my mother conceived me" .... "flesh gives birth to flesh" ... "you were dead in your sins"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Why then do you make this accusation? 'since when have you thought that there was some saving merit in yourself that God should make it possible for you to be saved.'
I wasn't trying to "accuse you" .. sorry if that sounded that way.
I was speaking in a hypothetical.
I fully admit there is nothing in me that God saw that made Him concluded that I should have had the truth and be called one of his.
I understand that when Paul writes "deadinyour transgressions andsins" .......... that "dead" is meant as completly "dead". I find decision theology as false as somebody expecting a car that has a dead battery to tell it that it must decide to charge itself.
Well Mike ... you were that car with the dead battery.
You, Mike, were "deadinyour transgressions andsins"
Decision theology ( which this is becoming about) ultimatly makes coming to faith a good work when you say "what you have to do". You may say "Faith indeed receives the offer of the free gift of salvation" ... however "But you must make the decision" indicates that decision theoloy is in fact actually proclaiming that salvation is the result of your ability to make yourself spiritually alive....
I agree with you here twin.spin ...though I would take it a step further and say that the Gospel is really not an offer, but rather a proclamation of what Christ did for us.
Jesus "offered" himself, on our behalf, to God, not man, as scripture tells us here:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
No katie ... not unfair, but God is not fair. A big difference. I am not a believer because of God being fair ... but because of his mercy and love.
I am being consistant. Psalm 103:10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.
If God was fair, he should treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities, for "flesh gives birth to flesh"...... a baby doesn't chose to be conceived by sinful human beings.
Unfair = not fair
I don't see how you can say they are not the same.
The fact remains that fair is synonomous with just.
You are not consistent at all. You interpret Psalms literally when it suits you and figuratively the rest of the time. If you are going to interpret literally, then you'd better do it all the time, not just when it agrees with your doctrine. I specifically pointed out the verses you do this with in another thread at an earlier time, and you never responded to my post.
Psalm 103:10 isn't saying that God is not fair because he doesn't treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. That is how you are reading it.
He doesn't treat us the way we should be treated because he is loving and merciful.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
This verse is the supposed proof text to show that we are born with sin. But if one examines it closely, it does not say that Adam's sin was passed on. To claim that it does is a gross misrepresentation of what the scripture says.
You're right, it does not say that "Adam's sin was passed on", but rather that "all sinned". All sinned (past tense). That is what the text actually says.
Quote:
1. SIN entered the WORLD through Adam since he was the first to sin. No one sinned before him. He, Adam, introduced sin.
Quote:
2. Spiritual death spread to all men because all men (not babies) sin.
What you're saying is actually different from what the text says. The text says "all sinned". The Greek word being used for "men" dying is ανθρωπους, and simply means all human beings, both male and female, young and old. I would think infants would be included here, insofar as they are included in "all sinned". The reason infants do not perish is because Christ died for them, forgave their sin that they committed in Adam, and justified them, in Himself on the cross. Infants are born of the Spirit and redeemed by Christ, no different than anyone else is, or will be, prior to entering the Kingdom
Quote:
SPIRITUAL DEATH (not sin) passed upon all men and why? Because all have sinned.
Exactly, and they did the sin "in Adam", as Paul tells us here:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Quote:
There you have the reason! Not because Adam sinned, but because WE ALL sin. This verse DOES NOT say that sin was passed on to all men.
Well, yes, you're right, we all did sin in Adam, when Adam sinned.
Quote:
3. The wages of sin is spiritual death, not physical death.
Actually, I believe sin causes both our spiritual and physical nature to die:
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Quote:
4. Physical death is not the result of our sin. If it were, none of us would live past our youth, or beyond when we know right from wrong. Physical death was decreed when Adam sinned.
It does include physical death, but physical death is a process that need not happen instantaneously, as in "dying thou dost die".
So, to summarize: Other than your first point made, I really don't think you've grasped what Rom 5:12 says.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 12-21-2011 at 10:59 AM..
Reason: typo
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...though I would take it a step further and say that the Gospel is really not an offer, but rather a proclamation of what Christ did for us. 
