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I grew up in southern baptist churches being taught the message of bible inerrancy and infallibility, and being taught that the bible was literally given by God. Since then, I have come to my own personal conclusion that this idea is completely illogical, and I personally do not understand why it has ever been taught that way.
I think that God would not give us something that is so divisive and contradictory, and that would end up being interpreted and translated dozens of times over so that the meaning of key passages could be taken different manners depending on the translation as well as what context the individual reading it takes in.
It seems that those who believe bible inerrancy always accuse those who question it of being deceived. The irony is that there are plenty of people who passionately believe in bible inerrancy and infalllibility, and are good people who follow Christ in their prayers and actions, yet they disagree about the meaning of different parts of the bible and often accuse each other of either being deceived or of wanting to deceive others.
Why would God give us a book that is so complex in order to teach us how to live?
Why does the bible itself contain glaring contradictions if we are supposed to view it as God's inerrant and infallible word? (example Exodus 33:11 states that "God spoke to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend, John 1:18 states "No one hath ever seen God".)
Why does being able to deeply understand the bible require a person to gain a deep understanding of different cultures over millenia, the language and practices of those cultures, as well as the writing styles of those cultures and the writer of the particular book being read?
Most importantly, why would God choose to use the bible as our source of revelation of His will and instruction for our lives, yet there are still many nations where the literacy rate is less than 50%?
My feeling is that the bible has been used as a tool by those who wish to keep religion in control. Christ came to destroy the hierarchy of religion. With his sacrifice, there is no priest, pastor, or religious figure that has a higher standing with God than any other person. Many churches seek to maintain the hierarchy with an established system of worship, even though Christ only references a body of believers as church, not a building.
The Bible(as it stands now)has been translated multiple times and edited by the powers that be so it is a much different document than originally written.
It(the original) wasn't "written" by God but inspired by God, but at some level that is all moot now due to the modifications made to support whatever position the powers that be at the time had.
I grew up in southern baptist churches being taught the message of bible inerrancy and infallibility, and being taught that the bible was literally given by God. Since then, I have come to my own personal conclusion that this idea is completely illogical, and I personally do not understand why it has ever been taught that way.
I think that God would not give us something that is so divisive and contradictory, and that would end up being interpreted and translated dozens of times over so that the meaning of key passages could be taken different manners depending on the translation as well as what context the individual reading it takes in.
It seems that those who believe bible inerrancy always accuse those who question it of being deceived. The irony is that there are plenty of people who passionately believe in bible inerrancy and infalllibility, and are good people who follow Christ in their prayers and actions, yet they disagree about the meaning of different parts of the bible and often accuse each other of either being deceived or of wanting to deceive others.
Why would God give us a book that is so complex in order to teach us how to live?
Why does the bible itself contain glaring contradictions if we are supposed to view it as God's inerrant and infallible word? (example Exodus 33:11 states that "God spoke to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend, John 1:18 states "No one hath ever seen God".)
Why does being able to deeply understand the bible require a person to gain a deep understanding of different cultures over millenia, the language and practices of those cultures, as well as the writing styles of those cultures and the writer of the particular book being read?
Most importantly, why would God choose to use the bible as our source of revelation of His will and instruction for our lives, yet there are still many nations where the literacy rate is less than 50%?
My feeling is that the bible has been used as a tool by those who wish to keep religion in control. Christ came to destroy the hierarchy of religion. With his sacrifice, there is no priest, pastor, or religious figure that has a higher standing with God than any other person. Many churches seek to maintain the hierarchy with an established system of worship, even though Christ only references a body of believers as church, not a building.
What's interesting you say the Bible is some tool to keep Religious authorities in control, but then you use it to support your position that the Temple is the Body not a building. So actually the Bible frees people from the Religious Heirarchy.
"Why would God give us a book that is so complex in order to teach us how to live?"
The actual instructions on how to live are quite clear. People have problems with all sorts of other things that are illuminated by God's Holy Spirit. It was written by individuals by one author the Holy Spirit, and must be read with the author Holy Spirit. The reason there are so many divisions is because there are many people, but only one Holy Spirit.
"Why does the bible itself contain glaring contradictions if we are supposed to view it as God's inerrant and infallible word? (example Exodus 33:11 states that "God spoke to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend, John 1:18 states "No one hath ever seen God".)"
Jesus is the Son of God.He is God Man. He said he was the "I am" speaking to Moses in the Burning Bush. Who spoke to Moses was the pre-incarnate Lord Jesusas well as Abraham et al..No man has ever see the Father, but Jesus says whoever has seen him has seen the Father. He is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:14-17). Jesus says God is Spirit. We can't see Spirit. There are no contradictions. Only places where people think it is contradictions.
A lot of what ifs this or that. The bottom line is everything now is lining up with exactly what the Scriptures have declared thousands of years ago. Everything from The New World Order New Age to the Aquarian "christ" Maitreya promising Utopia for mankind. The origins of the Movement trace back to Helena P. Blavatsky, Alice Bailey (founder of Lucerifer Trust changed to Lucis Trust - current NGO of the United Nations), Manly P. Hall, and has progressed to New Age Luciferians David Icke, Michael Tsarion, etc...
All the pieces are in place now for this coming to pass.
Matthew 24 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Dead Sea Scrolls confirm inerrency of the Word in its original and can be found on-line. King James Version by far the best because it is not subject to man-made copyright rules, but not inerrant. The best evidence of this is translating "Easter" as opposed to "Passover". Clearly the mention of swords, chariots, etc is a product of the time. The Greek is incredibly precise and illuminates these passages more clearly. There are only small non-doctrinal issues though in the authroized KJV. The Authorized version has not changed since 1611.
It requires an effort to seek God. After all he is our Maker. If you seek you will find God says. He makes it clear he's continuously calling through is Spirit through your conscience. We are without excuse for not seeking him in our lifetime here. It is why we are here.
John 3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
The Light is Jesus the Messiah. All we have to do is turn to him in repentance, and he promises you will not come into condemnation.
It's all about the Heart. God wants our heart. This is why the Lord Jesus set us free from Religious externalism to serve in newness of the Spirit. We have freedom to use our bodies for instruments of righteousness, not bound to legalistic rituals endorsed by the Religious Institutional Heirarchy.
Jesus not only freed us from Spiritual death and the Power of Sin, but he freed us from "Religion" to serve as Spiritual creatures unto good works.
Jesus was the most anti-Religious person ever to walk this planet - and he created it.
Matthew 21:12-14
12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
14And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.
Giving isn't out of mandate. It should come from the heart. That's what God wants from us. A change of mind - Repentance- Metanoia. God's will is that all be saved, but our rebellious nature toward him in Messiah Jesus is keeping him from doing that.We have to come to God on his terms.We are indebted to our Maker with a debt we can't pay. The good news is he's paid it on that Cross for any that come to that Cross to ask for his forgiveness.
No ritual or formal prayer needed. Just a heart to heart with your Maker Messiah Jesus now giving your heart to him, and he's paid for the transgression.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 02-04-2012 at 09:44 AM..
I grew up in southern baptist churches being taught the message of bible inerrancy and infallibility, and being taught that the bible was literally given by God. Since then, I have come to my own personal conclusion that this idea is completely illogical, and I personally do not understand why it has ever been taught that way.
I think that God would not give us something that is so divisive and contradictory, and that would end up being interpreted and translated dozens of times over so that the meaning of key passages could be taken different manners depending on the translation as well as what context the individual reading it takes in.
It seems that those who believe bible inerrancy always accuse those who question it of being deceived. The irony is that there are plenty of people who passionately believe in bible inerrancy and infalllibility, and are good people who follow Christ in their prayers and actions, yet they disagree about the meaning of different parts of the bible and often accuse each other of either being deceived or of wanting to deceive others.
Why would God give us a book that is so complex in order to teach us how to live?
Why does the bible itself contain glaring contradictions if we are supposed to view it as God's inerrant and infallible word? (example Exodus 33:11 states that "God spoke to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend, John 1:18 states "No one hath ever seen God".)
Why does being able to deeply understand the bible require a person to gain a deep understanding of different cultures over millenia, the language and practices of those cultures, as well as the writing styles of those cultures and the writer of the particular book being read?
Most importantly, why would God choose to use the bible as our source of revelation of His will and instruction for our lives, yet there are still many nations where the literacy rate is less than 50%?
My feeling is that the bible has been used as a tool by those who wish to keep religion in control. Christ came to destroy the hierarchy of religion. With his sacrifice, there is no priest, pastor, or religious figure that has a higher standing with God than any other person. Many churches seek to maintain the hierarchy with an established system of worship, even though Christ only references a body of believers as church, not a building.
I don't, for reasons you stated. For one to believe that the bible, the way it is today, is inerrant and infallible, they would have to turn a blind eye and solely rely on faith. (Which is fine, if that's how they want to live).
I was raised to believe it was the infallible word of God as well. As an adult, with open eyes, I see too much of what you have written to continue to believe that.
You actually have not humbled himself and become a child of God and received Jesus Spirit into Your life .... For only men and women who have Jesus spirit can discern the spiritual ideas of Jesus Christ and the purpose of the Living God and naturalism and agnosticism is not of Holy Spirit and when people see this vision then they will not see the truth that Jesus authored...... See Moses did not see God , but he did visits God and was in His presences, just as many Christian believers have been In God presence and not seen Him ... See God is spirit , but has a profound presence that people can feel and people have seen Lord Jesus as in visions and the light of God glory .. But Moses and no man have seen God face , only Jesus has seen the face of God ....... See there are man contradictions in the word of God if you do not have vision of spiritual things of the unseen world of Heaven and the unseen world of the dark spirit of this world , But you discern the Word of God with Spiritual things than the Word of Make perfect senses ...As a child of God has more senses and the gifts of Holy spirit have given all the children of God new senses that natural man will Not have unless they turn from sin repent and receive Jesus Spirit
The actual instructions on how to live are quite clear. People have problems with all sorts of other things that are illuminated by God's Holy Spirit. It was written by individuals by one author the Holy Spirit, and must be read with the author Holy Spirit. The reason there are so many divisions is because there are many people, but only one Holy Spirit.
Well, that is my point. If, as you say, it must be read with the Holy Spirit to be understood, how can that make any sense. Are the words of the bible by themselves confusing on purpose?
Quote:
[/b]Jesus is the Son of God.He is God Man. He said he was the "I am" speaking to Moses in the Burning Bush. Who spoke to Moses was the pre-incarnate Lord Jesusas well as Abraham et al..No man has ever see the Father, but Jesus says whoever has seen him has seen the Father. He is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:14-17). Jesus says God is Spirit. We can't see Spirit. There are no contradictions. Only places where people think it is contradictions.
I think you are referring to Exodus 3, not Exodus 33. Exodus 3 says the angel of God appeared in the burning bush. Exodus 33 says that "the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend". This was God in Exodus 33, because it is while God is speaking to Moses after the golden calf idol incident in Exodus 32.
You actually have not humbled himself and become a child of God and received Jesus Spirit into Your life .... For only men and women who have Jesus spirit can discern the spiritual ideas of Jesus Christ and the purpose of the Living God and naturalism and agnosticism is not of Holy Spirit and when people see this vision then they will not see the truth that Jesus authored...... See Moses did not see God , but he did visits God and was in His presences, just as many Christian believers have been In God presence and not seen Him ... See God is spirit , but has a profound presence that people can feel and people have seen Lord Jesus as in visions and the light of God glory .. But Moses and no man have seen God face , only Jesus has seen the face of God ....... See there are man contradictions in the word of God if you do not have vision of spiritual things of the unseen world of Heaven and the unseen world of the dark spirit of this world , But you discern the Word of God with Spiritual things than the Word of Make perfect senses ...As a child of God has more senses and the gifts of Holy spirit have given all the children of God new senses that natural man will Not have unless they turn from sin repent and receive Jesus Spirit
I grew up in church and accepted Christ as my savior, both in private in prayer, and publicly, was baptized in the name of Christ, spent much time on my knees in prayer to God. I read the bible and prayed from the time I was old enough to read up until now, which is roughly 30 years. I have sought God through Christ my entire life. And the only time the bible seems like it is an infallible and inerrant book is when I was being told that by a pastor or church member. The rest of the time, it felt like ancient texts that were confusing and awkward, and yes, that involves praying before, during, and after reading.
How can people NOT believe the Bible was given to us by God.
Sometimes when I see these in-your-face thread titles on the Christian forum, I think, "What is this OP's real agenda?" ... and look at what else they have posted on C-D. Your posts suggest that you are a self-professed (or, at least, confused) 'prior Christian' who has given up on organized religion ... and is rejecting the foundational principles of scripture itself. It now seems that you are teetering on the brink of rejecting the Bible altogether for what you perceive as contradictions or inconsistencies--- and justifying it by what you see as the mis-use of scripture by some/many/all(?)' religious people.
Accepting your profession of 'past/present Christianity' at face value, I would caution you about your current search for God and truth. Be careful that you don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater!" Once you start to categorically reject God's Word, the Bible ... you place yourself on a very slippery (and worldly) Spiritual slope. Without the Bible, what will you use as a basis for what you DO believe? ... and How will you judge truth and error or discern what is of God and what is not?
Do you really believe that you can maintain a clear, strong Christian faith in Jesus Christ, ... yet, reject the source of ALL of your information about Him and His Gospel? You've said, for example, that "you are accepting that things are far different than your beliefs." While it's always good to challenge what we believe and why, ... you must still have a consistent basis for what you will accept as "true."
Instead of challenging or rejecting the Bible, because you believe people mis-use and mis-interpret it, you might want to consider doing exactly what the Bible tells you to do. Test every doctrine and teaching against scripture --- IF what you are hearing or being taught is inconsistent with or contradicts scripture --- the problem is NOT with scripture, but with what you are hearing or being taught.
Do you really believe that you can maintain a clear, strong Christian faith in Jesus Christ, ... yet, reject the source of ALL of your information about Him and His Gospel?
This is part of the problem I think. The bible is being made into an idol. The source of ALL information about God and the gospel should not be a book that is confusing, with many contradictions, and transcripted/translated many times over from the original writings. It should not be from a book that requires one to learn all the ancient history of the middle east and languages and cultures of people of old just to be able to read it and know if it speaking literally, figuratively, or in parable, riddle, or whatever else has been used to describe sections that don't make sense without applying one or a combination of the previously mentioned in order for it to make sense.
Since you are saying the bible is the source of ALL information about God and the gospel, what do you think the billions who have lived an entire life unable to read at all are to do in order to understand God's will? What are those who are living in places where they have yet to even see a bible supposed to do in order to know what God wants?
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How can people NOT believe the Bible was given to us by God.
