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So here you are saying that God was able to give a 100% accurate and correct bible to the original authors, but God was not able to get all that past the translators without error.
This is where it comes to with the question of inerrancy:
If we KNOW that there are copyist errors, the best case argument for inerrantists is that the originals were 100% correct, but the rest of the bibles have errors and we should all trust that those who failed to translate some things correct got all the important stuff right.
There are no contradictions in the Bible or in the nature of God.
Give one example of each that you think is a contradiction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang
Blatant contradiction:
As for the nature of God, in Exodus 32:11-14
11 Then Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, “O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your [f]descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your [g]descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
If God never changes, why did he change here? Depending on which translation you look at, either God changed his mind which is something the bible says God doesn't do is change, or God repented of evil (thats the King James Version of verse 14). In any translation, God is angry at his people and wants to kill them all for worshiping a golden calf. Moses tells God to stop being angry and God agrees and either changes his mind by some translations, or repents in other translations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Neither is there any contradiction here. God is not inflexible. God is indeed immutable which refers to His nature. He cannot change any of the attibutes of His nature or essence.
However, God can take a different course of action based upon human response to His offers of blessing or His threats of judgment. To demonstrate this simply refer to Jeremiah 18:5-10. 'Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, 6] ''Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?'' declares the LORD. ''Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. 7] ''At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8] if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9] ''Or at another moment I might speak concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10] if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.
Based on Moses entreaty, which by the way God had always known that Moses would make such an entreaty on behalf of the people, God relented from His threatened course of action.
Also, on a related note, God made both unconditional and conditional promises or covenants with Israel. An unconditional covenant depended only on what God Himself had promised to do. A conditional covenant depended on Israel's obedience to God.
Refer to Psalm 106 and see how God severely punished Israel for their rebelliousness but then relented when they cried out to Him.
Refer also to Amos 7:1-6 in which God relented from all the punishment He would have carried out except for Amos's prayer on behalf of Israel.
God responds to cries for mercy.
These two apparent but non-existent contradictions vanish in the light of understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXboomerang
I don't see how any part of what you just said relates in any way to Exodus 32. Moses doesn't pray or beg or ask for mercy at all in Exodus 32. Lets look again:
I am not sure where any of that applies to Exodus chapter 32.
Moses tells God to turn from his burning anger. And then he tells God what the Egyptians will say about God having evil intent. He doesn't tell God they have changed, are changing, or will change. And they DIDN'T change at all. The story continues with Moses going down to the camp AFTER he talked God out of destroying the people, and thats when Moses broke the tablets in his own anger because they were still doing the same thing that had made God mad to begin with.
Then Moses (after gathering the sons of Levi) instructed them that God commands them to go from gate to gate in the camp and every man KILL HIS BROTHER, KILL HIS FRIEND, KILL HIS NEIGHBOR. So God directs the people to go kill their brother, friend, and neighbor immediately after Moses talked God out of killing them first. God wanted to kill all of them for worshiping a golden calf, but since Moses talked him out of it, the command that Moses says comes from God is to go kill 3,000 brothers, friends, and neighbors.
It was only after going down, breaking the tablets in anger, then instructing the men who came forward to go on a killing spree (3,000 killed) that Moses went back up (the next day) to ask God for atonement for their sin. Then God said that those who had sinned against him would be blotted out of his book and in the last verse of chapter 32, God still smote the people who worshiped the golden calf.
Again, the point is to read Exodus chapter 32 and ask the question, does this story make sense? Does this sound like the nature of God? Moses didn't tell God anyone would change, and in fact, the chapter goes on to say very clearly that they didn't. And in the end, God chose to go ahead and kill them anyway.
You have not listened.
You first questioned how God could change His mind since He is immutable. I explained that God cannot change His nature, but that He can change His threatened course of action based on human response to His threat.
I then directed you specifically to Jeremiah 18:5-10 which specifically addressed that.
I also directed you to Amos 7:1-6 in which God relented relented from all the punishment He would have carried out except for Amos's prayer on behalf of Israel.
And just as God relented from all the punishment He would have carried out except for the fact that Amos prayed on their behalf, I specifically said that Based on Moses entreaty, which by the way God had always known that Moses would make such an entreaty on behalf of the people, God relented from His threatened course of action.
Moses interceded on behalf of the people and God relented, just as He answered Amos' prayer.
Moses entreated the Lord. An entreaty is an earnest request, a supplication, a prayer, an appeal. Moses beseeched God to turn from what He had threatened to do.
That might have been clear to you if you had made any effort to actually understand it. But clear or not, this is all the time I'm going to spend on this.
originally posted by mike555
As for the variations in the manuscripts, and the copyist errors in those copies, they do nothing to change any point of doctrine, nor have they resulted in the loss of any doctrine. What we have in our bible today (not withstanding the obviously bad translations) accurately presents what was in the original autographs.
Quote:
so here you are saying that god was able to give a 100% accurate and correct bible to the original authors, but god was not able to get all that past the translators without error.
this is where it comes to with the question of inerrancy:
If we know that there are copyist errors, the best case argument for inerrantists is that the originals were 100% correct, but the rest of the bibles have errors and we should all trust that those who failed to translate some things correct got all the important stuff right.
I did not say that at all. The original autographs were God-breathed. The Holy Spirit communicated to the writers of Scripture God's complete message, and using their own vocabulary and literary style the writers recorded that message.
As manuscript copies were made, errors and variations naturely crept in, and sometimes deliberate changes were made. Yet, in spite of that, as I have already said, no point of doctrine has been lost or changed and all that God intended to be recorded in the original autographs has been preserved down through time despite the errors. Our modern Bibles contain the original autographs complete message and doctrines.
If you will do an honest study on the science of textual criticism with regard to the Bible you can gain a better understanding of this.
As with the other topics, I will spend no more time on this.
In the beginning, I believed by faith that the Bible is the word of God. Then, my life experiences and learning validated it.
Here is an article that helps explain why I believe that the Bible is the word of God.
FIRST, on the ground of the testimony of Jesus Christ.
SECOND, on the ground of its fulfilled prophecies.
THIRD, on the ground of the unity of the book.
FOURTH, on the ground of the immeasurable superiority of the teachings of the Bible to those of any other and all other books.
FIFTH, on the ground of the history of the book, its victory over attack.
SIXTH, on the ground of the character of those who accept and of those who reject the book.
SEVENTH, on the ground of the influence of the book.
EIGHTH, on the ground of the inexhaustible depth of the book.
NINTH, on the ground of the fact that as we grow in knowledge and holiness we grow toward the Bible.
TENTH, on the ground of the direct testimony of the Holy Spirit.
R. A. Torrey's Ten Reasons Why I Believe the Bible Is the Word of God. (http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/dasc/TRWIBB.HTM - broken link)
You first questioned how God could change His mind since He is immutable. I explained that God cannot change His nature, but that He can change His threatened course of action based on human response to His threat.
I then directed you specifically to Jeremiah 18:5-10 which specifically addressed that.
I also directed you to Amos 7:1-6 in which God relented relented from all the punishment He would have carried out except for Amos's prayer on behalf of Israel.
And just as God relented from all the punishment He would have carried out except for the fact that Amos prayed on their behalf, I specifically said that Based on Moses entreaty, which by the way God had always known that Moses would make such an entreaty on behalf of the people, God relented from His threatened course of action.
Moses interceded on behalf of the people and God relented, just as He answered Amos' prayer.
Moses entreated the Lord. An entreaty is an earnest request, a supplication, a prayer, an appeal. Moses beseeched God to turn from what He had threatened to do.
That might have been clear to you if you had made any effort to actually understand it. But clear or not, this is all the time I'm going to spend on this.
You must not have finished reading Exodus chapter 32. Moses goes down and commands a lot of killing, then he goes back up and ask God to forgive the sin that a few verses earlier God said he would relent on, but God says no. Then depending on which translation you read, God either sent a plague to them or smote them, which are 2 very different courses of action.
You must not have finished reading Exodus chapter 32. Moses goes down and commands a lot of killing, then he goes back up and ask God to forgive the sin that a few verses earlier God said he would relent on, but God says no. Then depending on which translation you read, God either sent a plague to them or smote them, which are 2 very different courses of action.
Because of Moses' intercession, God's punishment was not as severe as it would have been. Deuteronomy 9:20 says that God was angry enough to have destroyed Aaron. But because of Moses, Aaron was spared. God had said He would destroy all the people and make a new nation from Moses.
Ex 32:10 ''Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them, and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you (Moses) a great nation.''
But God spared the people other than the major instigators of golden calf affair. And of course He spared Aaron who had agreed to make the golden calf. As you can see in Deut 33:1 the people resumed their journey. Now eventually, because of their continued complaints, all the adults of the original generation of people who had been led out of Egypt died prematurely in the desert with the exception of Caleb and Joshua, and it was the children of that first generation who went into the land. (Num 14).
The apostles most certainly did regard their letters as Scripture.
In 1 Peter 3:16 Peter compared Paul's letters with 'the rest of the Scriptures'. By the reference to the rest of the Scriptures Peter meant the Old Testament Scriptures. Peter placed Paul's letters on a par with the Old Testament Scriptures.
Peter referred "IN" Paul's epistles
"Of These Things" - 2 Pet.3:16
"Prphecy 0f Scripture" - 2Pet.1:20
from "Holy Men 0f God" 'moved by the Holy Spirit. v.21
'These Things' Peter compared 'IN' Paul's epistles
of what "The Holy Prophets
and Commandment of The Lord said. - 2Pet.3:2
- Peter did not refer to Paul's epistle AS Scripture.
- Peter spoke of Scriptures, "These Things" IN Paul's epistles.
""Paul....has written to you as Also IN all his epistles
speaking IN them OF THESE THINGS....as they do also
the rest of Scripture' - v.16
Peter was stirring their memory of Scriptures from
The Holy Prophets and what The Savior taught about
"The Day 0f The Lord". - 2Pet.3:2,9
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