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Which part is hypothetical? The part about hearers of the law not being justified? Or the part about doers of the law being justified?
Romans 2:7 and 2:13 are entirely hypothetical.
As I showed in your own thread, Paul in presenting his case and building to his conclusion regarding who is justified, showed in Romans 3:20 that no one has or can keep the law. 'because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
This means that no one is a doer of the Law and no one is saved by the Law.
Compare:
Romans 2:13 '...the doers of the Law will be justified.'
However:
Romans 3:20 'Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight.
Now, did Paul contradict himself? He did NOT!!!
The early chapters of Romans are intended to show that the whole world is guilty before God and that the only way a man can be justified POSITIONALLY with regard to eternal salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone.
Romans 5:1 'Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:2 'For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3] For what does the Scripture say? ''And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'' 4] Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.'
Works have their place. But not with regard to your eternal salvation.
Romans 2:6 says that God will render to every man according to his deeds.
For the unbeliever at the great white throne judgment, that means he will be condemned on the basis of his works (Revelation 20:11-15). Not on the basis of his sins. His sins were already paid for by Christ and cannot be judged again. The unbeliever can only produce works which come from his imperfect righteousness
The believers works which come from his human righteousness will be burned up, but he himself will be saved.
The believers works which are produced by the Holy Spirit will be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ.
Was Jesus also being hypothetical when He talked about the things we need to "do" in order to inherit eternal life?
When Jesus was asked (Luke 18:18) by the rich young ruler what he must do to inherit eternal life, that man was under the impression that he had to do the works of the Law to have eternal life. Jesus answered him on that basis. Jesus told him what the requirements of the Law were if he was to be saved by keeping the Law. And of course, no one can be saved by keeping the Law because no one can keep it perfectly. James 2:10 'For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.'
Please understand that God's plan of eternal salvation is based on grace. Not on any works on your part. Salvation costs you nothing because God did all the work and Jesus paid the price for you in full.
God does not make eternal salvation difficult for you. He desires that everyone be saved. And all you have to do is to place your faith - trust - confidence completely in Jesus Christ who died as a substitute for YOU!!! That's it. That is all that God asks and requires of you. Faith in Christ. Faith plus NOTHING!!! You take possession of the free gift of eternal life through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE.
Works - fruit - spiritual production belong to the spiritual life after salvation. Not to salvation itself.
The particular passage you used was with regard to Israel in the Millennium.
Now man has a conscience which, however can be seared. But conscience and knowing right from wrong does not negate the need to learn the principles and doctrines of the word of God.
All three Persons of the Trinity indwell the church-age believer. This was not true in any previous dispensation.
Hi Mike,
Does God provide us with His Holy Spirit to enable us to obey Him or not? Your response wasn't totally clear to me.
Is 1 Corinthians 10:13 true? Does God provide us a way out of temptation every single time... or only sometimes? If it is every single time, then sin has no authority in the life of a believer and we have truly been set free from sin. We don't NEED to sin. We may sin at times, and there is provision for us (1 John says "If you sin..."), but there's no need to sin, ever, no dominating "nature" that makes sinning a foregone conclusion in our lives.
Is Hebrews 4:16 true in our lives or not? Can God's grace assist us in our time of need or not? If God's grace can assist us to resist temptation, sin has no authority in the Christian's life and if you do disobey God it is only because you have not approached His throne of grace for help in time of need! All we need is available to us through Jesus! I have no problem preaching and personally believing this great grace of God!!
ALSO... if Hebrews 4:16 is saying what it is saying, then grace is the power for our obedience so you can stop with saying we believe a self-righteous, works-based salvation (this is quite simply not what I believe AT ALL).
Of COURSE we grow in the grace of God, there is no denying it God is a shepherd leading us, teaching us. We are trained by constant practice to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5). No one here is saying God demands you to be an instant pro at obedience from the word go. We are saying that living obediently (faithfully) is required by God, and possible through grace.
Salvation, both initially and finally and everything in between is all by God's grace, a grace which we access by faith.
Please understand that God's plan of eternal salvation is based on grace. Not on any works on your part. Salvation costs you nothing because God did all the work and Jesus paid the price for you in full.
God does not make eternal salvation difficult for you. He desires that everyone be saved. And all you have to do is to place your faith - trust - confidence completely in Jesus Christ who died as a substitute for YOU!!! That's it. That is all that God asks and requires of you. Faith in Christ. Faith plus NOTHING!!! You take possession of the free gift of eternal life through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE.
Works - fruit - spiritual production belong to the spiritual life after salvation. Not to salvation itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Romans 2:7 and 2:13 are entirely hypothetical.
As I showed in your own thread, Paul in presenting his case and building to his conclusion regarding who is justified, showed in Romans 3:20 that no one has or can keep the law. 'because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
This means that no one is a doer of the Law and no one is saved by the Law.
Compare:
Romans 2:13 '...the doers of the Law will be justified.'
However:
Romans 3:20 'Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight.
Now, did Paul contradict himself? He did NOT!!!
The early chapters of Romans are intended to show that the whole world is guilty before God and that the only way a man can be justified POSITIONALLY with regard to eternal salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone.
Romans 5:1 'Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:2 'For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3] For what does the Scripture say? ''And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'' 4] Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.'
Works have their place. But not with regard to your eternal salvation.
Romans 2:6 says that God will render to every man according to his deeds.
For the unbeliever at the great white throne judgment, that means he will be condemned on the basis of his works (Revelation 20:11-15). Not on the basis of his sins. His sins were already paid for by Christ and cannot be judged again. The unbeliever can only produce works which come from his imperfect righteousness
The believers works which come from his human righteousness will be burned up, but he himself will be saved.
The believers works which are produced by the Holy Spirit will be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ.
You believe that justification and sanctification need to be carefully delineated so as to avoid falling into a legalistic, works-based salvation. I really do disagree with you... I mean, it's certainly challenging for me to read your arguments and lines of reasoning and to grapple with this subject because, as you know, I've been schooled in the theology that you present here (I went to a fundamental Bible college in fact). However, I find you present no argument that is persuasive whatsoever in light of the Scriptures as I have come to understand them.
Here are some scriptures that talk about the necessity of sanctification to our salvation.
Hebrews 12:14
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Romans 6:22
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
(The very next verse says that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life..... so being free from sin, being sanctified, is part of God's gift of eternal life, no?)
1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.
Living to righteousness is stated here as a REASON for Christ's death. Without Christ's death, it is impossible to live to righteousness.
All of the verses that you put forward regarding justification by faith alone, apart from works of the law, are speaking about being saved (past tense). Nobody can have their past sins forgiven by trying to uphold the law, that is craziness. This is what Paul is addressing: people who are trying to keep the law and earn righteousness while failing to realize that if they've stumbled in one point, they stand guilty of breaking the whole law. That guilt is what needs to be dealt with. We need a robe of righteousness from God, to be forgiven of breaking the law! This is what He gives us by faith ALONE when we believe on Him!! Not only does He give us a robe of righteousness, but He gives us His Spirit, because He knows that without it, we can't uphold the law! He desires our sanctification, and makes this possible by His generous, powerful gift of grace.
Now the Galatians for instance, were being deceived into believing they needed to keep elements of the old covenant to receive salvation. They were bewitched, Paul says! The "law" they were trying to keep (circumcision) did not even resemble the righteous requirements of the law that God wants us to uphold. They were being brought into bondage, and Paul wanted this thinking done away with immediately! This isn't saying that Paul didn't want us striving for holiness or upholding the law of Christ.
Does God provide us with His Holy Spirit to enable us to obey Him or not? Your response wasn't totally clear to me.
The Christian way of life is a supernatural way of life and requires the enabling power of the Holy Spirit to execute. The Christian way of life is not morality as any unbeliever can be moral. Hell will be full of moral people. The Christian way of life is higher then morality. It demands virtue which can only be realized when walking in the Spirit.
During His First Advent, Jesus Christ in hypostatic union and in Kenosis refrained from using His own deity independently of the Father's plan to make His way easier. Instead, in setting the pattern for us, He relied on the Holy Spirit. He did at times use His own deity, but not to benefit Himself.
Quote:
Is 1 Corinthians 10:13 true? Does God provide us a way out of temptation every single time... or only sometimes? If it is every single time, then sin has no authority in the life of a believer and we have truly been set free from sin. We don't NEED to sin. We may sin at times, and there is provision for us (1 John says "If you sin..."), but there's no need to sin, ever, no dominating "nature" that makes sinning a foregone conclusion in our lives.
Yes. Of course 1 Corinthians 10:13 is true. The believer retains his sin nature after salvation which is one source of temptation in the believers life. But God will not allow anyone to be tempted beyond he is able to resist.
But the simple fact is that 'we all stumble in many ways' as James 3:2 states. And as 1 John 1:8 says, 'If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.'
With spiritual growth the believer will sin less, and his sin pattern may change. That is, he may stop commiting certain sins, only to start sinning in other ways.
Because you retain your sinful nature after salvation you are going to sin despite God's provison. That is why God also made the procedure for sin recovery so simple. 1 John 1:9 'If we confess (name, cite, identify, acknowledge) our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' You don't have to feel sorry for your sins though you might, your don't need to promise God that you will not commit that sin again. You will commit that sin again untill and unless you grow out of it. Simply name it, forget it, and move on with your spiritual life.
Quote:
Is Hebrews 4:16 true in our lives or not? Can God's grace assist us in our time of need or not? If God's grace can assist us to resist temptation, sin has no authority in the Christian's life and if you do disobey God it is only because you have not approached His throne of grace for help in time of need! All we need is available to us through Jesus! I have no problem preaching and personally believing this great grace of God!!
And of course Hebrews 4:16 is true as well. But again, you are human, you have a sin nature, and from time to time you are going to fail. Moses failed, Elijah failed, both were spiritually mature. And from time to time you are going to fail as well.
Quote:
ALSO... if Hebrews 4:16 is saying what it is saying, then grace is the power for our obedience so you can stop with saying we believe a self-righteous, works-based salvation (this is quite simply not what I believe AT ALL).
In grace, God provides for the purpose of enablement to execute the spiritual life, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is a basis for the filling of the Holy Spirit. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit as opposed to the filling of the Spirit also makes the body of the believer a temple (1 Cor 6:19) for the indwelling of Jesus Christ as the Shekinah glory.
There are many people who think that if the believer dies with even one unconfessed sin, that he is going to go to hell. There are many people who think that you must work for your salvation in blatant disregard for what the Scriptures say. There are many people who think that you must obey all the commands of Christ in order to be saved. That is the heresy of 'Lordship salvation' which makes as a requirement for salvation the obedience that only the believer after having been saved can have. Sadly, most people think that the believer can lose his eternal salvation which means that they think that it is necessary for the believer to maintain his salvation by something that he does or refrains from doing.
Quote:
Of COURSE we grow in the grace of God, there is no denying it God is a shepherd leading us, teaching us. We are trained by constant practice to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5). No one here is saying God demands you to be an instant pro at obedience from the word go. We are saying that living obediently (faithfully) is required by God, and possible through grace.
Salvation, both initially and finally and everything in between is all by God's grace, a grace which we access by faith.
Again, many people think that you must do those things which I already described above in order to be saved or to maintain their eternal salvation. and that is arrogant self-righteousness.
And most believers do NOT grow in grace or in the knowledge of God because the things of this life are given priority over spiritual growth. And quite simply, many believers just aren't interested in making the effort that spiritual growth requires. Yes, I said EFFORT. There is no effort required to be eternally saved, but spiritual growth requires sustained effort.
Mike, if you don't grow spiritually, if you don't sow to the Spirit and instead sow to the flesh (as a pattern of life, I mean, not just a one time sin for instance) once you are "justified by faith alone", can you still be sure you are eternally saved?
If you are "saved" and you never grow, never deny yourself and never become a disciple of Jesus, putting to death the deeds of the flesh, and following after Jesus, is eternal life (sans rewards) your inheritance?
You believe that justification and sanctification need to be carefully delineated so as to avoid falling into a legalistic, works-based salvation. I really do disagree with you... I mean, it's certainly challenging for me to read your arguments and lines of reasoning and to grapple with this subject because, as you know, I've been schooled in the theology that you present here (I went to a fundamental Bible college in fact). However, I find you present no argument that is persuasive whatsoever in light of the Scriptures as I have come to understand them.
All you are saying is that you have rejected sound doctrine and drifted into error. This is common.
Quote:
Here are some scriptures that talk about the necessity of sanctification to our salvation.
Hebrews 12:14
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Romans 6:22
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
(The very next verse says that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life..... so being free from sin, being sanctified, is part of God's gift of eternal life, no?)
Positional sanctification is one of at least 40 grace gifts which God gives the church-age believer at the moment of faith in Christ.
And here is a thread I did on those 40 grace gifts.
1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.
Living to righteousness is stated here as a REASON for Christ's death. Without Christ's death, it is impossible to live to righteousness.
All of the verses that you put forward regarding justification by faith alone, apart from works of the law, are speaking about being saved (past tense). Nobody can have their past sins forgiven by trying to uphold the law, that is craziness. This is what Paul is addressing: people who are trying to keep the law and earn righteousness while failing to realize that if they've stumbled in one point, they stand guilty of breaking the whole law. That guilt is what needs to be dealt with. We need a robe of righteousness from God, to be forgiven of breaking the law! This is what He gives us by faith ALONE when we believe on Him!! Not only does He give us a robe of righteousness, but He gives us His Spirit, because He knows that without it, we can't uphold the law! He desires our sanctification, and makes this possible by His generous, powerful gift of grace.
Now the Galatians for instance, were being deceived into believing they needed to keep elements of the old covenant to receive salvation. They were bewitched, Paul says! The "law" they were trying to keep (circumcision) did not even resemble the righteous requirements of the law that God wants us to uphold. They were being brought into bondage, and Paul wanted this thinking done away with immediately! This isn't saying that Paul didn't want us striving for holiness or upholding the law of Christ.
I'm sure that I made the distinction between the two categories of sanctification clear. That the believer is positionally sanctified at the moment of salvation which refers to his legal position in Christ. In contrast to being positionally sanctified, a believer is experientially or progressively sanctified by growing spiritually after salvation. I provided passages for both categories of sanctification.
Judically all personal sins past, present and future were judged at the cross. Because of that, at the moment of salvation through faith alone in Christ alone all personal sins up to the moment of salvation are forgiven. Sin is therefore not an issue in salvation. But after salvation, sin in the believers life is an issue in that it puts the believer into a state of carnality under the control of his sin nature. This is temporal death or carnality and requires the use of the principle of 1 John 1:9 to be restored to fellowship
The righteous requirements of the law were fulfilled by Christ. For that reason, the believer, being in Christ is set free from the bondage of the law.
The issue in eternal salvation is faith alone in Christ alone. The issue in the spiritual life of the believer after having been saved is growing spiritually by means of inculcation, metabolization, and application of Bible doctrine in the life of the believer under the filling of the Holy Spirit.
Mike, if you don't grow spiritually, if you don't sow to the Spirit and instead sow to the flesh (as a pattern of life, I mean, not just a one time sin for instance) once you are "justified by faith alone", can you still be sure you are eternally saved?
If you are "saved" and you never grow, never deny yourself and never become a disciple of Jesus, putting to death the deeds of the flesh, and following after Jesus, is eternal life (sans rewards) your inheritance?
The believer IS eternally secure whether he is sure of it or not. If the believer understands the complexities of what was involved in God making salvation possible he would realize that eternal salvation cannot be reversed. It cannot be lost.
The only thing which can be lost is eternal rewards. Eternal life can never be lost.
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I have no problem preaching and personally believing this great grace of God!!
