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The problem is the concept of torment as punishment, Steph. It is NOT punishment . . . it is the consequences of the state of mind that each individual has achieved to that point. It is not a belief or attitude they can decide to reject or change at the last minute. It is who they are at that point that causes the inner torment upon realization of the error and evil of their ways in the light and understanding of God's pure love ("refining fire") and the irreversible pain and harm they have caused by it.
Have you ever unthinkingly or inconsiderately or selfishly caused some irreversible harm to someone you loved? You cannot undo it or take it back and the effects are devastating? If not . . . you cannot comprehend even an inkling of what such remorseful "weeping and gnashing of teeth" would be like. Nor can you imagine what it will be like to have every single instance during an entire lifetime excruciatingly revealed and made absolutely clear and vivid to you with no chance to undo any of it.
Such inner remorse and pain with the understanding from the perspective of God's pure love will change you . . . but it will take time . . . as much time as the pain and harm you inconsiderately, or selfishly or un-lovingly inflicted over a lifetime on every single person. That is what reaping what YOU sowed MEANS.
It is as serious as the harm or damage it inflicts and its consequences will be equal in time and inner pain.
An appropriate snippet from OBSERVATIONS ON MAN – Dr. David Hartley
“I thank God that He has at last brought me to a lively sense of His infinite goodness and mercy to all, and that I now see it in all His works, and in every page of His Word. It has taught me to love every man and to rejoice in the happiness which our Heavenly Father intends for all; and has dispersed all the gloomy and melancholy thoughts which arise from the apprehension of eternal misery for myself or friends.
How long, or how much God will punish wicked men, He has nowhere said, and therefore I cannot tell. But this I am sure of, that in judgment He will remember mercy; that He chastens only because He loves, and His tender mercies are over all His works. God will conduct the wicked through all the afflictions which He thinks fit to lay upon them for their good, with infinite tenderness and compassion.”
The Universalist Doctrine looks to be what will be used for Uniting all Religion claiming all worship the same God in different ways. That's not what the Lord says. Many are going to find this out the hard way.
Christian Universalism teaches that all will be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. He is the Only Way. It is not about uniting all religions but the belief is that all will eventually come to know Jesus as Lord and Savior. God bless and peace.
- How long is "eonian"?
- How long does the fire need to burn in order for God to be considered merciless, wrathful, and a monster unworthy of our faith and worship? Eternity? A couple million years? 10 years?
How long, or how much God will punish wicked men, He has nowhere said, and therefore I cannot tell. But this I am sure of, that in judgment He will remember mercy; that He chastens only because He loves, and His tender mercies are over all His works. God will conduct the wicked through all the afflictions which He thinks fit to lay upon them for their good, with infinite tenderness and compassion.”
Many Biblical scholars understand that it is an indefinite period of time. It is the adjective of an age (eon). I don't believe that the fire is literal but that it refers to the judgements of God. It is a judgment confined to the ages and Paul speaks of the ages to come. The ages are periods of time through which God is working out His purposes but the ages will eventually end. The God of the ages exists beyond the ages so we know that judgment, punishment, torment will not last forever but will last as long as it takes to bring all into subjection to Him. Whatever God does to bring about the eventual subjection of all to Him stems from love, not from vindictiveness. There is a higher purpose. He is said to be love, not hate."
Many understand that it was given to the apostle Paul to give the full revelation of the plan of God for the ages. In Colossians 1 Paul says:
"24I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and do fill up the things lacking of the tribulations of the Christ in my flesh for his body, which is the assembly,
25of which I -- I did become a ministrant according to the dispensation of God, that was given to me for you, to *fulfil the word of God,
26the secret that hath been hid from the ages and from the generations, but now was manifested to his saints,
27to whom God did will to make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this secret among the nations -- which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory,
28whom we proclaim, warning every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus, 29for which also I labour, striving according to his working that is working in me in power." (Youngs Literal)
* literally-made full the word of God
*Pleroo= to preach or explain fully
John gives us the book of Revelation which was written after Paul according to scholars, however, it is Paul who gives the complete or final plan of God.
Example:
Notes:
"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20:21-22:
In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed.
All made alive, immortal
In Revelation 20:21-22, we have:
Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
Authority (21:24,25)
Power (21:24,25; 22:2
Kings (21:24-26)
Saints reign (22:5)
Second death still exists (21:5)
The nations still mortal (22:2)
Ref: L. Abbott
God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-28-2012 at 05:04 PM..
The problem is the concept of torment as punishment, Steph. It is NOT punishment . . . it is the consequences of the state of mind that each individual has achieved to that point. It is not a belief or attitude they can decide to reject or change at the last minute. It is who they are at that point that causes the inner torment upon realization of the error and evil of their ways in the light and understanding of God's pure love ("refining fire") and the irreversible pain and harm they have caused by it.
Have you ever unthinkingly or inconsiderately or selfishly caused some irreversible harm to someone you loved? You cannot undo it or take it back and the effects are devastating? If not . . . you cannot comprehend even an inkling of what such remorseful "weeping and gnashing of teeth" would be like. Nor can you imagine what it will be like to have every single instance during an entire lifetime excruciatingly revealed and made absolutely clear and vivid to you with no chance to undo any of it.
Such inner remorse and pain with the understanding from the perspective of God's pure love will change you . . . but it will take time . . . as much time as the pain and harm you inconsiderately, or selfishly or un-lovingly inflicted over a lifetime on every single person. That is what reaping what YOU sowed MEANS.
It is as serious as the harm or damage it inflicts and its consequences will be equal in time and inner pain.
Many understand that it was given to the apostle Paul to give the full revelation of the plan of God for the ages. In Colossians 1 Paul says:
"24I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and do fill up the things lacking of the tribulations of the Christ in my flesh for his body, which is the assembly,
25of which I -- I did become a ministrant according to the dispensation of God, that was given to me for you, to *fulfil the word of God,
26the secret that hath been hid from the ages and from the generations, but now was manifested to his saints,
27to whom God did will to make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this secret among the nations -- which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory,
28whom we proclaim, warning every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus, 29for which also I labour, striving according to his working that is working in me in power." (Youngs Literal)
* literally-made full the word of God
*Pleroo= to preach or explain fully
John gives us the book of Revelation which was written after Paul according to scholars, however, it is Paul who gives the complete or final plan of God.
Example:
Notes:
"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20:21-22:
In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed.
All made alive, immortal
In Revelation 20:21-22, we have:
Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
Authority (21:24,25)
Power (21:24,25; 22:2
Kings (21:24-26)
Saints reign (22:5)
Second death still exists (21:5)
The nations still mortal (22:2)
Ref: L. Abbott
God bless and peace.
An appropriate snippet from
UNIVERSAL RESTORATION: THROUGH THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES – CHARLES WELLER
“The feast of tabernacles means the feast of ingathering. It takes an eight day period to bring in the fullness of the ingathering. Eight is the number of new beginnings in scripture or FULL RESTORATION.
1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible. The fifteenth chapter clearly shows how great the totality of the feast of tabernacles will be. ‘As in Adam all die (every preacher will agree that all people are in Adam but few believe that the word all mean all in the second part of the verse) so in Christ all shall be made alive.’ Jesus is going to gather all together in Himself. He will have everyone in His nature.
Everything that occurs, occurs in the plan and order of God. In 1Corinthians 15 God shows that there are different orders. The highest order is Jesus Christ. Everything will, in time, be brought into Jesus Christ. All shall be gathered into Him. When this is done then Jesus, the Son, will turn all over to the Father. It is then we find that time ends, for God becomes All in all (verse 28).
I actually have a couple of questions for you in light of this....
- How long is "eonian"?
- How long does the fire need to burn in order for God to be considered merciless, wrathful, and a monster unworthy of our faith and worship? Eternity? A couple million years? 10 years?
Hi Steph,
It should be asked, in what way are we to take the term "fire"? Should we take it to mean what we Westerners of the 21st century take it to mean or take it to mean what 1st century people of Israel took it to mean?
I bring this up because there were two ideas in vogue back then, the literal and figurative usage.
As to the figurative usage, Israel was said to be in the furnace for 400+ years while in Egypt (no one in their right mind would really think Egypt was a literal fiery furnace) and God refined them in the fires like gold is refined and took out the dross from them.
As to the literal usage cities would be burned in literal fires and in the valley of Tophet the Israelites would (improperly) burn their children to the god Molech which God never instructed them to do and it did not come up on His heart for them to do such a horrid thing (Jer.19:5).
If God thought it such a horrid thing for them to torture and burn their children in fire, why do we think (as Western Christians) God thinks it is O.K. to literally burn His own children?
In the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) as to how those nations treated Christ's brethren during their great tribulation, those nations are going to go into the eonian fire which in verse 46 is called "eonian chastening." So just as Israel was in the eonian fire of chastening while in Egypt 400 years, now it is the nations turn to go into the furnace for or "pertaining to the eon" which eon is to last for 1000 years. It is not a literal fire anymore than when we say "That football team was tried by fire."
How long is eonian? you ask? Eonian is just an adjective and is descriptive of the noun it modifies. It just has the task of telling us about that which is pertaining to the eon(s). The Bible states that all the eons end, so they cannot be "eternal." For instance, in Romans 16:26 God is said to be 'the eonian God." His Godness (if you wil) is pertaining to the eons. He is in control of the eons and the outcome of each goal He has for each eon. When the eons end He will cease to be the eonian God. He will then be "God All in all" (1 Cor.15:28).
Here are some adjectives to give you an idea of their role:
Heaven = noun
Heavenly = adjective
The heavenly angel visited Mary. The realm of the angel pertains to heaven.
America = noun
American = adjective
Washington was an American president. His presidency pertained to America.
Eon = noun
Eonian = adjective
"These shall go away into eonian chastening yet the just into eonian life." The goat nations chastening is pertaining to the eon and the sheep nations life is pertaining to the eon of Matthew 25:46. They both run concurrently and are of the same duration, that duration being no more than 1,000 years.
Quote:
A lot of CU's I've heard talk about how they "couldn't" worship a God who would torment people for eternity, and that anyone who believes this doesn't understand God's true nature of love, etc. So, how long would be considered an acceptable duration of torment, in order for these CU's to say that it's ok now... God can still maintain His reputation of love. Will God release people from this torment when they repent and turn to Him? If so, who wouldn't repent after 60 seconds in the flames then? What about sin? How serious is sin? Do we actually know how serious it is? Is any sin deserving of even a day of hellfire? I don't think we see how serious sin actually is, because I'm sure that many people would think the punishment doesn't fit the crime... but maybe it does? Just some thoughts.
God tortures no on in fire. The lake of fire is death. Death is unconsciousness. No one is tortured in the lake of fire.
The fire of the Rich man and Lazarus is figurative fire. There isn't really fire in a tomb where the rich man went or a deep gorge with an impassable river in his tomb as well. Abraham did not really exist in the tomb of the poor person. People don't literally go to a place of fire because they got good things in this life nor do they go to Abraham's bosom because they received evil in this life (which is the reason Abraham gave in the parable).
"How serious is sin?" you ask? Serious enough for God to send His Son into the world to save sinners. All our sins were died for. God accepted that.
Quote:
What do you think, and could you answer these questions from a UR perspective please?
Thanks!
Blessings,
Steph
Done, and blessing to you too Steph. Any other questions, please do not hesitate to ask.
Thanks for your replies... Mystic, Shana and Eusebius.
I have a further question for you about the judgement to come. I get the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that God doesn't have any anger and that the time spent in 'hell' is in no way related to His wrath. Is this correct, in your view?
If this is so, could you please tell me why the Bible says that we are saved from the wrath of God through Jesus Christ, and that God's wrath is coming on the sons of disobedience, and that through impenitence and hardness of heart people are storing up God's wrath?
Thanks for your replies... Mystic, Shana and Eusebius.
I have a further question for you about the judgement to come. I get the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that God doesn't have any anger and that the time spent in 'hell' is in no way related to His wrath. Is this correct, in your view?
If this is so, could you please tell me why the Bible says that we are saved from the wrath of God through Jesus Christ, and that God's wrath is coming on the sons of disobedience, and that through impenitence and hardness of heart people are storing up God's wrath?
Thanks again for your insight.
Steph
The wrath or indignation to come which we are saved from is an indignation or wrath which is coming upon the earth. It is not about some fiery hell.
For instance, in Revelation when the bowls are being poured out one can rightly state that that is God's wrath or indignation. It is not hell, it is a correction of what is wrongly going on.
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1Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible
