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Through faith in Christ. God's mercy endures forever (to the ages of the ages).
How many ages you think we have to believe in Christ? More than this live? How do you know? some scripture. One life, afterwards judgement, no second chance (Heb 9:27).
Very simple. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is concerning "age-lasting" or "age-during" destruction from the face of the Lord. "Destruction" and "Lost" use the same Greek word. It never means "so destroyed as to never be saved."
So, the age-during destruction is only until Romans 5:18,19 kick in, not to mention 1 Timothy 2:4-6; 4:10, etc.
Your problem with destruction is that you say the wickedness is destroyed, but the bible says the wicked, meaning the person. Lost means separated from the presence of the Lord, only this dispensation is of the grace where repentance is granted, who does not do it is lost for eternity. So repent and be not deceived and deceiving others. Why you seek another way, you do not want to repent? You want to continue in rebellion? Why? Because of your pride, I am right. Why do you think the bible is wrong and you see it right.
I totally agree that the idea of eternal torment has been twisted to the point where people think that it is the torment that lasts forever, rather than the flame. In actuality, it is the flame that never dies. Once the flame has done its job, the punishment and correction is over.
I tried to find the verse that you quoted, and I presume it was Psalm 37:20. "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
I don't agree with the annihilation theory, even though I used to. I realized that this theory diminishes the power of God, and makes Him out to be a God that cannot finish the task that He began. The above verse from Psalm 37:20 is taken from Leviticus 4:34 of the Priestly instructions : "Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer them up in smoke on the altar, on the offerings by fire to the LORD. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven."
The priests were representatives of God, and these instructions show how God wants things done. So the fat of the lamb is to be removed BEFORE it is offered on the altar. This translates to the removing of the sin, and the SIN is cast into the fire of the altar. God has the ability to separate the sin from the person just as Paul said that the Word of God can divide, (or separate), soul and spirit. Hebrews 4:12
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I don't agree with the annihilation theory, even though I used to. I realized that this theory diminishes the power of God, and makes Him out to be a God that cannot finish the task that He began.
Before I say anything else would you define 'the task God begin'...THKS
Originally Posted by Eusebius Very simple. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is concerning "age-lasting" or "age-during" destruction from the face of the Lord. "Destruction" and "Lost" use the same Greek word. It never means "so destroyed as to never be saved."
So, the age-during destruction is only until Romans 5:18,19 kick in, not to mention 1 Timothy 2:4-6; 4:10, etc.
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Originally Posted by Zur
Your problem with destruction is that you say the wickedness is destroyed, but the bible says the wicked, meaning the person. Lost means separated from the presence of the Lord, only this dispensation is of the grace where repentance is granted, who does not do it is lost for eternity. So repent and be not deceived and deceiving others. Why you seek another way, you do not want to repent? You want to continue in rebellion? Why? Because of your pride, I am right. Why do you think the bible is wrong and you see it right.
Dear Zur,
Where do you read in the Bible that one who does not repent is lost for eternity? Could you please post a verse or two then we can deal with that.
I'm not rebelling. God specifically tells us to teach that "God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all" (1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11). If I did otherwise I would be prideful.
You ask: "Why do you think the Bible is wrong and you see it right?"
What part of the bible are you asking about? Are you asking about my thoughts on destruction as found in the bible?
Jesus himself said he came to seek and "to save the ***lost*** sheep of the House of Israel." The whole person was lost. Again, "lost" and "destroyed" use the same Greek word. Being lost or destroyed was a prerequisite to being saved by Christ.
How many ages you think we have to believe in Christ? More than this live? How do you know? some scripture. One life, afterwards judgement, no second chance (Heb 9:27).
Since when does judgment from God imply that the person being judged cannot repent and receive mercy: God's mercy endures forever.
Before I say anything else would you define 'the task God begin'...THKS
"The task that God began" is His overall plan. He planned from the beginning for Adam to sin, and He planned from the beginning that Jesus would be the answer for that sin, and to reverse Adam's sin towards mankind. The final plan of God is to bring everyone to glory, and for everyone that ever lived to be finally washed of their sin and be worshipful of God with their own wills. If Adam would have remained sinless, he would not have, (nor would his offspring), been committed to God with his whole will. The proof of this is that Adam was allowed by God to make a choice. He obviously made the choice of his own desire instead of following the only law that was given: Not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This act split the spirit from the soul and opened up the opportunity for God to work things out so that, in the end, the soul would willingly follow the Spirit unquestionably. It is to finish mankind in the image of God, exactly the way that Jesus was able to do while He was upon earth. It is God's desire to instill in every human being the desire to follow God and do the things that God knows is best for us. Adam's sin opened the door for this to happen. The final thing that God wishes for us, is that we will allow, of our own free will, to have God's law written on our hearts in such a way that we will follow God as if it were our own thought and will. Then we are not robots, nor are we forced.
Since we know that few men die with salvation, we have to question how God can accomplish this since Hebrews says, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
The answer is that we are misunderstanding the meaning of judgment. It is the Greek word "krisis" which means a separation, trial, correction, or contest. Knowing the power of God, we have to realize that God would never give up on anyone, nor could anyone surprise Him. So God has a plan of rehabilitation for everyone, and this plan individually will correct the problems that each person has. Sin is a debt, and unlike today's justice system, even the worst crime has a corresponding debt that can be paid off. There are no laws on God's book that have the judgment of eternal torture. God is willing to rehabilitate everyone, no matter how long it takes.
God never created man as an experiment, thinking that most of humanity would have to be sent to an eternity of torture, or perhaps be annihilated. Why would He even begin creation if He had a premise such as that? He knows the end from the beginning, so to start creation knowing that perhaps 90% of humanity would be tortured forever is very sadistic and evil to the max. It's no wonder that the atheists laugh at the Christians when they say 'God is love' in one breath, and 'you can end up in everlasting torment' in the next breath.
Not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This act split the spirit from the soul and opened up the opportunity for God to work things out so that, in the end, the soul would willingly follow the Spirit unquestionably.
The part I high-lighted makes absolutely no sense. The word 'soul' means 'life' or "a living breathing being," and the word spirit means 'breath' mind or "wind." So what you're stating is this: "this act split the breath/wind from the life/living being."
So what you are actually saying is this: this 'act' caused man to die or his mind to die!!
ETA: and as to the rest of what you believe [all men will eventually be 'saved] how do you reconcile that with the numerous passages in the OT and NT that say the exact opposite?
Last edited by mshipmate; 04-02-2014 at 01:13 PM..
The part I high-lighted makes absolutely no sense. The word 'soul' means 'life' or "a living breathing being," and the word spirit means 'breath' mind or "wind." So what you're stating is this: "this act split the breath/wind from the life/living being."
So what you are actually saying is this: this 'act' caused man to die or his mind to die!!
ETA: and as to the rest of what you believe [all men will eventually be 'saved] how do you reconcile that with the numerous passages in the OT and NT that say the exact opposite?
Paul explains that we are spirit, soul, and body. Looking in a concordance at these words is confusing. Paul says you have a spirit. He also said you have a soul, and a body. Your spirit is like breath, and Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that when your body goes to dust, your spirit returns to God. The soul is the part of yourself that you are in complete control of. It's your mind, will, and emotions. This is the part that Jesus told us to give to Him, when He said in Matt. 10:29, "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." the word "life" in this verse is psuche, which is soul. Psuche tells us that it is of the psyche, or mind. When Adam sinned, he received death, just as God told him that he would. But it wasn't total physical death, it was death of his spirit, in that his spirit was separated from the complete communion that he had before that time. How do we know this? Like I said before, The first thing that happened after the sin was that Adam became conscious of his nakedness. Then he covered himself with fig leaves. This is the mind trying to cover up shame. This consciousness wasn't there before the fall. First his spirit experienced separation from God. Then his soul, or mind, was separated from his spirit and began to make judgment calls based on his own knowledge rather than God's. Then eventually, his body died.
All men eventually saved? Yes, that's the overall plan of God. Always has been. And no, the NT and OT don't say the opposite, and there's nothing to reconcile. God is supreme. He knew what Adam would do before he did it. Would a sane God allow this, knowing that millions would perish to hell forever? No. God knew this, and designed it to happen. We have been brainwashed by people like Augustine to believe that eternal torment is the truth, when actually, it is the lie. It was devised as a method of control. God follows His own law. There is NO provision in the law to sentence someone to eternal torment. That is a human invention. Go back and honestly look at the original definitions of those words, and look up the meaning of Gehenna. Fire purifies, and God will use it for that purpose. He never had any intention to throw even a single human being away. There is something really wrong with our thought process when we think that God would do something with fire that by law, anyone would be imprisoned for...that is, setting another person ablaze, under any circumstance. John 3:16 says: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Tear that verse apart. It says that without believing in Jesus, a person could perish. Does it give a deadline for this? No it doesn't. Would a person standing at the Great White Throne believe in Jesus when he sees Jesus and the Father face to face? I'm sure that he would. Do we have the right to say that someone doesn't deserve to believe at that point? Does believing at that point qualify that person to satisfy John 3:16? Yes, it does. It says they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, right? Where does the fire come from? The Throne of God. What is fire for? It is for purifying. What happens to metal once it is put through the process of melting by fire. The scum comes to the top, and is removed. Once the scum is removed, does the refiner throw away the metal? No. So why would God throw away a purified person? Do we think that in the eons to come, that God cannot transform these people into something for His Glory? And are we SO jealous and superior to every non believer, as to desire eternal fire for them?
In revelation 20 it says that there are 2 resurrections. The First Resurrection is for those that are prepared to meet Jesus at His coming. The second resurrection is for the Great White Throne Judgment and involves everyone else. The First Resurrection is portrayed by Jesus in the parable of the 10 virgins. All 10 were believers, but only 5 were allowed in to the marriage. So what happens to the other 5? They will be at the Great White Throne. Paul said, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." He will be saved through the fire of judgment, but his works will be burned up and he will suffer loss. Jesus said, "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Jesus is saying that this person will suffer the loss of his soul. He says nothing about spirit or body. Those will remain. Also, when an unbeliever comes before the Throne, he will instantly become a believer. There will be no unbelievers at the Great White Throne. Because they didn't believe, they couldn't give their lives to Jesus, and they would fall under the written judgment: They would lose their souls. Their works would also be judged according to the law of God. Since the judgment is then satisfied, why do we think that these people deserve eternal torment? They've already lost everything that meant anything to them!
We, as Christians should be overjoyed that God has made this provision! How many people do we know that under normal Christian thinking are bound for hell? Do you know some? I do! But who are we to think that God would not have provided a way to purify even the worst of sinners? Do we think this because we WANT THEM TO SUFFER? Sometimes I wonder! Do we think that we can sin our way to a hell, or be righteous enough to go to heaven on our own merits? Do we actually believe that one sin is enough to condemn us to an eternal hell if we don't believe in Jesus?
Is God more fair than our US judicial system? Yes? Well, in our system, every crime has it's debt to pay. The worst is execution. Execution is the end of the judgment. But we would say that God would not only judge the crime, but if you don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God, then God is going to not just punish you, but torture you. And not for a certain amount of time as required by His own law, but forever on to infinity! That is insanity!
"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to Holiness."
Eventually, every human being will overcome, each in their own era.
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