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So what you are saying is Jesus hit the mark for you and because he did,you are going to heaven if you believe he did ?.
My point is if you are still sinning you are still missing the mark and still falling short of the glory of God.
The Bible says that if we are in Christ, we have his righteousness. It's imputed to us---meaning we are credited with his righteousness. It's not just what I say---it's what Paul said. We are seen as perfectly righteous to God--because that's what Christ is.
Once you reject Jesus teachings in the New Testament, you have rejected Jesus. Jesus is Lord is the earliest Christian creed. This is an acknowledgment that Jesus is God almighty, the Son of God. Therefore you have also rejected the Father and since Jesus promised the HOly Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, it means that since you reject the doctrine of the Trinity you have rejected God. Jesus said, No one comes the Father except by Me. YOu can figure out the rest.
Did Jesus ever once use the words I am Yahweh, or I am the Father, or I am that I am, did Jesus in direct conversation ever call himself God?
When he was asked by some one who he was what did he personally tell them?
And once again we are basing our facts on a scripture which was written by men who are imperfect.
"All have fallen short of the glory of the lord." - In a since no one is perfect except God, which includes Scribes, Translators, and Preachers. It is possible for scripture to contain errors by Christs own logic.
Did Jesus ever once use the words I am Yahweh, or I am the Father, or I am that I am, did Jesus in direct conversation ever call himself God?
Yes. And the Jewish people picked up stones to kill him by stoning.
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When he was asked by some one who he was what did he personally tell them?
And once again we are basing our facts on a scripture which was written by men who are imperfect.
He claimed to be the Messiah, and he claimed to be the great "I AM", in addition to a bunch of other titles that point directly at his divinity.
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"All have fallen short of the glory of the lord." - In a since no one is perfect except God, which includes Scribes, Translators, and Preachers. It is possible for scripture to contain errors by Christs own logic.
May peace and love be with you always.
Scripture is inspired by God. It's considered "God-breathed". Since God doesn't make mistakes, it does not contain error.
Yes. And the Jewish people picked up stones to kill him by stoning.
He claimed to be the Messiah, and he claimed to be the great "I AM", in addition to a bunch of other titles that point directly at his divinity.
Scripture is inspired by God. It's considered "God-breathed". Since God doesn't make mistakes, it does not contain error.
Cite some verses of evidence of him claiming to be God.
Again this is a persons interpretation of what happened, it was written and translated by men who themselves where imperfect, God may have inspired the men, but those men are prone to mistakes. Unless a Prophet can't make mistakes?
The burning bush was a means of communicating and Moses did not erect an Idol of it, or start worshiping an Idol of the bush, nor did he praise the idea of the burning bush, he praised the source of it.
People did not worship the Prophets just because they where the Voice of God,
Even if Christ was some thing akin to the Bush we should not worship him as that would break one or more of the commandments. Titles are man made constructs, the Hindu accept several Avatars as Gods and Worship them all, several Titles to which they have given their Gods, what Christians are doing to Gods son is no different, they have given him Titles and declared his divinity because God worked miracles through him.
"The Son can do nothing with out his Father."
"Why do you call me Good, no one is Good except God alone."
Several times Jesus had to pray to God, God would not be so arrogant as to praise himself. God would have simply done it with no prayer.
Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you king of the Jews?" Christ replied: "It is you who says so."
He did not even accept the title of king when presented with it, he danced around the question, he was pretty much saying, "You've made me into what you want me to be, I didn't do it."
Cite some verses of evidence of him claiming to be God.
Is it going to change your mind? I doubt it.
Rev. 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,†says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Rev. 1:17 [Jesus said],"Fear not, I am the first and the lastâ€
Rev. 2:8 [These are the] words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
Rev. 21:6 [Jesus said] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.
Rev. 22:13 [Jesus Said] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
John 8:12 Jesus said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." -- in the context, he was claiming to be the source of Light -- in the middle of the Festival of Lights. He was clearly calling himself God in this instance--worthy of worship.
John 10:30-33 “I and the Father are one.†Again Jews picked up stones again to stone him, because He claimed to be God
John 5:16-18 "My Father is working until now, and I am working." …the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him… because he was calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:21-23 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
John 8:58-59 Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him
Matthew 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
In Matthew 4:10 Jesus Himself said “You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serveâ€
-- Yet In Matthew 8:2; 9:18 and 15:25 He allows people to kneel before Him and call Him Lord
Matthew 28:9 [The disciples] came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
John 9:38 The man born Blind said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
Matthew 9:2 Jesus said, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven."
Matthew 9:6 “…the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"
Mark 2:5 "My son, your sins are forgiven."
Mark 2:10 “The Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"
Luke 5:20 Jesus said, "Man, your sins are forgiven you."
Luke 5:24 “the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"
Luke 7:47-50 Jesus said, "Your sins are forgiven." Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, "Who is this, who even forgives sins?"
No doubt you'll attempt to spin these because the alternative is to change your understanding.
Rev. 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,†says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Rev. 1:17 [Jesus said],"Fear not, I am the first and the lastâ€
Rev. 2:8 [These are the] words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
Rev. 21:6 [Jesus said] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.
Rev. 22:13 [Jesus Said] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
John 8:12 Jesus said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." -- in the context, he was claiming to be the source of Light -- in the middle of the Festival of Lights. He was clearly calling himself God in this instance--worthy of worship.
John 10:30-33 “I and the Father are one.†Again Jews picked up stones again to stone him, because He claimed to be God
John 5:16-18 "My Father is working until now, and I am working." …the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him… because he was calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:21-23 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
John 8:58-59 Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him
Matthew 28:18 All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
In Matthew 4:10 Jesus Himself said “You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serveâ€
-- Yet In Matthew 8:2; 9:18 and 15:25 He allows people to kneel before Him and call Him Lord
Matthew 28:9 [The disciples] came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
John 9:38 The man born Blind said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
Matthew 9:2 Jesus said, "Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven."
Matthew 9:6 “…the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"
Mark 2:5 "My son, your sins are forgiven."
Mark 2:10 “The Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"
Luke 5:20 Jesus said, "Man, your sins are forgiven you."
Luke 5:24 “the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"
Luke 7:47-50 Jesus said, "Your sins are forgiven." Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, "Who is this, who even forgives sins?"
No doubt you'll attempt to spin these because the alternative is to change your understanding.
God blessed Jesus with authorities, and God can take them away.
These people worship him of their own accord, if he would have asked them to stop they probably wouldn't have any way, the man had the power to do almost any thing, who wouldn't think you where God if you had those powers? But It clearly says it was by the Ancient of Days authority that Jesus had those powers and that any thing God gives could be taken away. It is also said that the demons have powers, and the Anti-Christ will trick us with powers exactly like the ones Jesus used except that outwardly the Anti-Christ will look good while inwardly he will be evil, after tricking people he will establish the Jewish temple where it once stood and reside there claiming to be God. Of course right now the Rock of the Mount is in it's place and I don't think Muslims would let that happen willingly so this Anti-Christ will pretend to be Christian and use Christians as a means to destroy the Rock of The Mount he will also captivate Muslims and Jews into thinking he is God in the flesh, after creating a false peace he will bear his fangs.
I am not going to put a spin on those verses I will simple tell you that the scriptures are not perfect because they are man made and man is not perfect, God is Perfect.
Just because those call him the son or he calls himself the son does not make him God. That makes him a begotten son of God.
God blessed Jesus with authorities, and God can take them away.
These people worship him of their own accord, if he would have asked them to stop they probably wouldn't have any way, the man had the power to do almost any thing, who wouldn't think you where God if you had those powers? But It clearly says it was by the Ancient of Days authority that Jesus had those powers and that any thing God gives could be taken away. It is also said that the demons have powers, and the Anti-Christ will trick us with powers exactly like the ones Jesus used except that outwardly the Anti-Christ will look good while inwardly he will be evil, after tricking people he will establish the Jewish temple where it once stood and reside there claiming to be God. Of course right now the Rock of the Mount is in it's place and I don't think Muslims would let that happen willingly so this Anti-Christ will pretend to be Christian and use Christians as a means to destroy the Rock of The Mount he will also captivate Muslims and Jews into thinking he is God in the flesh, after creating a false peace he will bear his fangs.
I am not going to put a spin on those verses I will simple tell you that the scriptures are not perfect because they are man made and man is not perfect, God is Perfect.
Just because those call him the son or he calls himself the son does not make him God. That makes him a begotten son of God.
May the grace of God be upon you always.
First you ask for Scriptural evidence that Jesus is God. And then when given that evidence you say that the Scriptures are not perfect and dismiss the evidence. Jesus is the Creator of all that has come into existence. He is explicitly called God in John 1:1 and Philippians 2:5-6.
You need to learn something about the Kenosis and the Hypostatic Union of Jesus Christ. As God Jesus has eternally existed and it was He who brought all things into being. As God He had all the authority of God. But He set aside His privileges as God when He became a man. That does not mean that He stopped being God, but only that He refrained from the independent use of His deity in order to benefit Himself during His First Advent. As a result of humbling Himself and being obedient to the Father's plan, He in His humanity was made higher than the angels and given authority. He was exalted. Again, that is with reference to His humanity. As God Jesus had always had divine authority. And by the way, the angels are commanded by God the Father to worship Jesus according to Hebrews 1:6.
And yes, the Scriptures in the original autographs are inerrant and perfect. God is the divine author of the Scriptures. Jesus said the Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35); that is, Scripture cannot be annulled or set aside when its teaching is inconvenient. Some of the Bible is dictation though most of it is not. However, the human writers were so superintended by the Holy Spirit that they recorded in their own vocabulary and style, God's message to man. Indeed the human writers of Scripture were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21] for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed (theopneustos; with reference to divine inspiration and point of origin) and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
Or would you limit God by saying that He was not capable of having set in writing through the use of human agency exactly what He wanted set down in writing?
Last edited by Michael Way; 04-29-2013 at 01:43 AM..
I am not your typical Christian as I do not believe in the Trinity, Christ Worship, or Blood Sacrifice.
Now before you start thinking I'm doomed for hell, please read what I have to say, after that you may wag your finger all you want.
First a part of my Theology holds that God is all-powerful;
Therefore if God is all powerful and limitless,
1. We as mortal beings can not fully comprehend God in his/her entirety so he/she sends us people who can speak for him/her. These include the Messiah aka Christ, Angels, and Prophets.
2. Because my God, the God of All is all-powerful he/she does not require rituals or the like for her power to manifest, therefore; the very idea that he/she needs a blood sacrifice is absurd. The only thing my God asks of us is that we commit our whole being to him/her, the only thing he/she asks us to sacrifice for his/her sake is our fleshly desires which have been corrupted by sin and can whole be made pure by his/her grace, it is by our willfulness to change for the better and our commitment to God that we are saved by grace, if we truly love god with all our heart then loving others will be second nature and if we love others following Gods commandments becomes second nature, but we are not saved by our own deeds alone, but also by Gods grace. God is also not confined to human ideals, even my description my not give Elohim justice.
3. We should not praise any thing but the Limitless, All-Powerful, Unperceivable God whose name is El. We should not worship the image or idea of any thing except El whose true form can not be known to us. The Worship of Jesus is a sin, whether if being treated as an Idol or as a false god, the same can be said for the Holy spirit. They are not God, they have a strong connection with God and came speaking for God as his/her mouth but the image and ideas we perceived where not El. Any form our entity you can perceive which directly claims to be El is lieing. The burning bush was an Avatar but was not God we should not erect idols in it's image or worship it or direct praise to it. The mother of Jesus is not to be regarded as an Idol of worship, nor any of the Saints or Angels.
4. Many feel that Prophesy has been sealed up by God, but that is a human made lie, Prophesy still exists and still happens. Not just Prophesy but many feel Gods voice has become silent, but that too is false, God speaks to those whom have sanctified themselves and awoken to him/her or in some rare cases such as Moses God speaks to any one God chooses. God may use any manner of means to communicate with us but the communicated mean is not to be worshiped.
5. You may pray in the name of some one or some thing, so long as that prayer is directed at God and worshiping God. There is a difference from calling on the name of a Saint in a prayer to speak to God on your behalf and worshiping the Saint. You may use an entities name so long as the prayer is directed to and worshiping God. Many who do this use Christ.
6. Christ is the only begotten son, however he is not the only child of God. Begotten means God came and impregnated or birthed the child, which has only happened with Jesus, However any soul who has committed themselves to Elohim has become a Child of God and a Brother of Christ Jesus. This can include Angels, Saints, and Prophets. Jesus himself had freewill and was not always a child of God, begotten yes but the moment in scripture Jesus became a Child of God was when he was baptized, It was not the ritual that matter at that time it was the desire and willingness to please God and commit to him that made Christ his child in more ways than one.
7. We are to love all others, love our self, and love God. We are to treat all others with acceptance and understanding, we are not to pass judgement upon them, we are to be open minded yet firm in our faith. Do not be hypocrites or spread hate. In the past God has used several things to bring judgement to us each time we have been asked to repent, and for a time we do, while those who won't bring on their own destruction either by Gods hands or their own, and so it is that in this age if we as a people do not get on the right path we will bring about our destruction by means of our weapons of mass destruction. And even if we do not destroy ourselves by that means we have slowly being destroying the Earth which God did give to us but God gave it to us with the intention that we care for it and tend to it like a gardener tends to his garden. If we deprive ourselves of the gift of the Earth it will no longer give of it's self freely to us and it will dry our and die.
8. Scriptures - First exists the Voice of God which comes to an individual, then that Individual thinks and reflects upon the Voice, that person writes it down and it becomes the Word, however while God is perfect people are not, people are imperfect and so nothing created by man can be made perfect, man made things have imperfections, therefore; it is impossible for Scriptures to be perfect. Some times people impose their own thoughts or feelings into their words and writings and this is one of many causes of biblical imperfections, among those imperfections include willful false testimony, mistranslatations, and misunderstanding or misinterpretation of a texts meaning. It is for this reason why many false doctrines have come into existence and corrupted Christianity.
While I can not and would not force any one to convert to the true Christianity that I practice, I have felt the need to tell people what has transpired over the centuries. This is not an attack on modern Christianity it is a statement of my beliefs, any one is free to debate them or disagree with them, or even agree with them, but I will not and should not force them on any one. People who practice false Christianity are unknowingly following the pied piper into the Void. Broad is the road that leads to destruction and many find it, narrow is the road to life and few will ever find it, for many will say to my Brother who is Christ on that day, "Did we not prophesy in your name and in your name win many converts and drive out demons." And he will say to them begone from me you evil doers I have never known you.
May Peace and Love be With You Always, In the name of the All-Fire, Elohim!
Just wanted to say that I've enjoyed reading this ^^^^. You bring up some very good points. God doesn't "require" anything, as He made everything, and He can do whatever He likes, He has no limits. People say God cannot do this or that, but they are incorrect. God can do whatever He wants. He answers to no one. He is above, we are all below.
The OT is summed up in the basic commands: love God with all your heart; love your neighbor as yourself. No men of the OT were as great as John the baptist, and yet we are greater than he was. Because God has given us His Spirit and a blessing that is greater than anyone before Jesus could have had. Not because of anything we have done, but because it is part of His plan.
Can God save to the uttermost? Yes! Is the darkness a problem for God? No! His hand has created all things, and He knows how to "fix" what is wrong. We are called to be lights in the world. Yet if we stare at a light, we become blinded, and we cannot see the way.
Lights are not to be stared at. They are to be used to move ahead on the path of life. Jesus is the Light that lights our way, when we are trusting in God.
Thank you for your posts here at CD. We need more of them. We all need to remember to stay away from idolatry.
And yes, the Scriptures in the original autographs are inerrant and perfect. God is the divine author of the Scriptures. Jesus said the Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35); that is, Scripture cannot be annulled or set aside when its teaching is inconvenient. Some of the Bible is dictation though most of it is not. However, the human writers were so superintended by the Holy Spirit that they recorded in their own vocabulary and style, God's message to man. Indeed the human writers of Scripture were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
"Scripture cannot be broken" means that the prophesies are always fulfilled. Jesus often broke the commands of Scripture, because He made them. He worked on the Sabbath. He touched the unclean. He didn't punish the adulterer.
When you see Jesus, you see God, because he represented God to humanity. Want to see God? Look at Jesus. Jesus was what God is and always has been.
Some people will say that there were righteous men in the OT, because it says so in the OT. But Jesus said no! The least in the Kingdom of God are greater than the OT men.
I keep repeating myself here on CD, but I guess it is necessary to repeat: the religious people put Jesus on the cross because he didn't abide by their religious rules. The same thing will most likely happen again in the future. If you don't want to find yourself fighting against God, keep this in mind. God is interested in freedom of Spirit, not dead letters.
"Scripture cannot be broken" means that the prophesies are always fulfilled. Jesus often broke the commands of Scripture, because He made them. He worked on the Sabbath. He touched the unclean. He didn't punish the adulterer.
It is of course true that prophecy is always fulfilled. But Jesus was not speaking of prophecy when He made the statement that Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35). Jesus had just stated that He and the Father were one. Not that they were the same Person, but that they were one in essense and in unity of purpose. The Jews accused Him of blasphemy by making Himself equal with God and picked up stones to stone Him. But Jesus appealed to the authority of Scripture to refute their charge of blasphemy by referring to the Law which here referred not only to the first five books of the the Old Testament, but to the entire Old Testament because He was quoting from Psalm 82 which is not a part of the Torah.
In Psalm 82 God passes judgment on men who He calls 'gods', and 'sons of the Most High'. Psalm 82 refers to God as the true judge, and of men appointed by God as judges but who were failing to provide true judgement for God. Jesus' argument was that if the Old Testament called their judges 'gods' then they could not logically accuse Him of blasphemy for calling Himself God's Son since He had been sent into the world by God.
Jesus added, 'and the Scripture cannot be broken.', thereby affirming the authority and inerrancy of the Bible with reference to the Old Testament.
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When you see Jesus, you see God, because he represented God to humanity. Want to see God? Look at Jesus. Jesus was what God is and always has been.
See the above comment.
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Some people will say that there were righteous men in the OT, because it says so in the OT. But Jesus said no! The least in the Kingdom of God are greater than the OT men.
Jesus did not say that there were no righteous men in the Old Testament. What He said was...
Luke 7:28 "I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
The meaning being that even the least in the kingdom of God will have greater spiritual capacity then even John the baptist himself. Those in the future kingdom will be under the New Covenant and have the Law of God written on their hearts. This was not the case with the Jews under the Old Covenant.
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I keep repeating myself here on CD, but I guess it is necessary to repeat: the religious people put Jesus on the cross because he didn't abide by their religious rules. The same thing will most likely happen again in the future. If you don't want to find yourself fighting against God, keep this in mind. God is interested in freedom of Spirit, not dead letters.
Blessings,
brian
You keep calling the Bible 'dead letters' and 'stale manna'. You are in error. As shown above Jesus appealed to the authority of the Scriptures. All Scripture is God - breathed.
2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed (theopneustos) and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
And no, Jesus did not break the commands of Scripture. Jesus fulfilled the Law completely. He understood the spirit of the Law and did not misapply it.
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