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That verse was written on the grounds that all the sins of the world had already been punished. You continuously ask people to show you where in the bible does it say our sins have been punished and we have provided you with possibly every verse there is and you still question it. I don't know why. Hebrews 10:18 was telling the Hebrews that there is no longer a need for them to continue offering the animal sacrifice for their sins because Jesus has already paid the price for all of our sins. So if you continue to offer a sacrifice knowing God has already provided the once and for all sacrifice then you are winning willfully.
There was never a need for animal sacrificing, except through the mindset of those who turned his house into a den of thieves.
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Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Minor correction above...
Spirit should be spirit.
God, who is love, still felt the need to sacrifice His Son on the cross for all sin - because love and forgiveness is ineffective on their own to override the penalty of sin.
Major correction: The Spirit dwells within, it's not wishful thinking.
It may be an inconvenience, according to your view and judgment of what is just.
However, the remission, pardon, or forgiveness of sin did not come by way of a gavel.
Luke 10:25 (Matthew 22:35, Mark 12:28)
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, "Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
He said unto him, "What is written in the law? How readest thou?"
And he answering said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all
thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."
And he said unto him, "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."
1 John 5:3
This is the love of God: that we keep His commandments and His commandments are not burdensome.
2 John 2:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands.
As you have heard from the beginning; his commandment is that you walk in love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
This is the satanic blasphemy of our loving Father that the OT corruption of God's motives produces. Read 1 Cor 13 carefully and show me where it says love needs sacrifice and punishment to forgive. Only primitive savages who have been indoctrinated from birth to believe God required blood sacrifices every year to appease His angry, vengeful and jealous nature would come up with such a corrupt interpretation of Christ's sacrifice to lay down His life for us.
There is only one reason to ignore, 1 Corinthians 13?
It's to throw in a substitution theory; and avoid walking in love.
It's a cross many do not want to bare, which reveals their true nature:
"Crucify him, Crucify him!"
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Originally Posted by balunman
I agree that only God's Spirit should be capitalized. While the spirit of man is always not.
Apparently, the Holy Spirit does not dwell within you?
Quote:
In reference to your comments that I have bolded above. That is what Jesus taught and God's written word speaks of. One must reject Jesus Christ to not believe this.
Hogwash: meaningless nonsense, simply drivel.
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God is justice and love. If you are just you cannot leave sin unpunished. If you are love you cannot punish the sinner.
Jesus is a testament to the true nature of God by laying down His life for us and taking the punishment for our sins.
According to your theory that an Emperor needs a "whipping boy."
Major correction: The Spirit dwells within, it's not wishful thinking.
It may be an inconvenience, according to your view and judgment of what is just.
However, the remission, pardon, or forgiveness of sin did not come by way of a gavel.
Luke 10:25 (Matthew 22:35, Mark 12:28)
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, "Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
He said unto him, "What is written in the law? How readest thou?"
And he answering said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all
thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."
And he said unto him, "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."
1 John 5:3
This is the love of God: that we keep His commandments and His commandments are not burdensome.
2 John 2:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands.
As you have heard from the beginning; his commandment is that you walk in love.
I understand the Holy Spirit dwells within believers.
The death of Christ for our sin is not a substitute because love is an inconvenience.
All sarcasm aside - this really needs to be understood.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death,...
That is God's law of sin and death. No exceptions. Old Testament,... New Testament.
It is obvious in the OT that there was animal sacrifice. There was a tabernacle, the various furnishings, the ark of the covenant, etc. for OT Israel. There was various temporary offerings that God put in place for his people until it was time for Christ to die.
The Lord had one group of people handle Him directly - which included handling the animal sacrifices (Leviticus). They were set apart to do that. They handled the death with regards to sin until Christ died.
You quoted Luke 10 above. Jesus still lived under the law. He didn't die yet. That's why when He was asked the question, Jesus replied by asking what did the law say. Jesus was a Jew living under the law. For the rank and file Jew in the OT - love God, etc. was the law. The Levites handled the sacrifices for the nation with regards to sin.
That is different than what we have now. This must be understood. The differences between the animal sacrifices and Christ's death are in Hebrews 9-10:18.
Today, Christ's death has paid for all sin.
You mention love for God means we follow His commandments. OK - one of those commandments is believing in His Son, whom He sent in order to receive eternal life. When you do that, that's when ou receive the Holy Spirit within you (John 7:38-39; Eph 1:13-14).
It is then we can finish Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 5:6-10 - For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
What you quoted in 1 John and 2 John is important for our continued walk with Christ - but it's the acceptance of His death for our sin that gives us eternal life.
"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of G-d? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of G-d, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John) 6:28,29 KJV
There is but one work G-d has commissioned us to work...believe on Yeshua. This is a faithful saying.
Last edited by littlewitness; 07-28-2013 at 11:04 PM..
Reason: something else to say
The cross IS the justice of God! Can you not see how God has so righteously saved us by condemning not only an innocent sinless man but His own Son for a crime He did not commit? Anyone would call that unjust by God did it that way so that we would never be punished for our sins. Anyone who knows they are a sinner and cannot save their selves will believe in this for their salvation.
Why did he have to suffer?
Why did he have to die?
If god is all powerful then god can and does show mercy with out the need for blood.
I still believe Jesus is Messiah and son of god, I just do not believe in sacrifice and never will.
What those people did to Jesus was evil, I have seen the passion of christ, no peaceful man should be treated that way.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Your statements reveal you to not be Christian, and that you do not believe the Bible. If you want to talk about what religions teach instead of what God has revealed in His Word then you should go to the religion forum. That's what it's for. Christianity is not a man made religion, but is a relationship with God through Jesus Christ who Himself is the Second Person of the Trinity.
Justice took care of the sins of the world at the Cross. Jesus paid the penalty for any sin that anyone will ever commit. Including any sin that a believer will commit after salvation. Sin is therefore not the issue in salvation. The only issue in salvation is whether or not a person turns to Christ for eternal life. Any sin the believer commits after salvation is handled as a family matter (Hebrews 12:4-11). The believer will be disciplined as a child of God in time for willful sin, and he will lose eternal rewards as a result of neglecting his spiritual life, but he cannot lose eternal life.
You have no authority to claim what I am or am not.
Jesus is the Messiah, Son of God, and King of this earth but his king and father is God. Jesus is not god.
Regardless of our vast theological differences we are both Christians.
Why was their even a penalty if god was going to provide a free scape goat path to salvation?
If God is All Powerful, then God doesn't need a price, mercy can be shown with out a price. Therefore the whole ritual was pointless because god wouldn't have needed it. But god does want repentance from us.
It's pretty clear that one receives Christ in His Holy Spirit by Faith calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus to be Saved within the New Covenant. When this occurs, the individual is "made alive" by God's Spirit as GOD's perfect righteousness and Holiness is imputed to the believer on their basis of their faith in Jesus Christ. This saves the individual from Damnation. Conversion changes the heart of the believer, and GOD begins to work in the individual to conform them into the image of His Son producing "fruit".
The age-long question is really can one that has received Christ as Savior based only upon His undeserving Grace and free gift LOSE Christ by choosing to rebel against Him? Can one upon receiving Christ through His free gift and unmerited Grace through Sin "vex His Holy Spirit"?
Isaiah 63:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
The question really comes down to what is the fate of those that "fell in the wilderness" (1 Corinthians 10)(Hebrews 3,4)(Book of Jude). The Bible talks about God saving a people out of the land of Egypt but afterward (talking about their Walk with the Lord) he was not well pleased and they were destroyed. Some suggest this as one is SAVED they can not be Lost therefore these folks PHYSICALLY died but not Spiritually. Some suggest this group saved out of the land of Egypt represent Spiritual deliverance but ultimately they were eternally lost through a Failure with their walk with the Lord through Unbelief/Disobedience. Others suggest this group represents PHYSICAL DELIVERANCE out of the Land of Egypt but were a "mixed multitude" (think Laodicea) of believers and unbelievers. Those unbelievers were the ones that fell away. The believers possessed the Promise Land. In the last view, "believers" CAN NOT fall away but because they had a "different Spirit in them" inherited the Promised Land thus entered into God's Rest.
So the issue really is the WALK with believer. It is very possible that one can not enter into God's "rest" through "unbelief"/"disobedience". This clearly is talking about the BELIEVERS Walk as the book of Hebrews is written to Believers. The warning to not Harden the Heart is not to unbelievers (Hebrews 3,4).
The question is is reckoning oneself to be crucified with Christ dead to sin and self repenting and trusting in Him considered by God a meritorious "work"? While it's clear the Bible says Abraham was saved by Faith and not of Works, it also says that "after he had patiently endured He received the promise".
Romans 4
King James Version (KJV)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Hebrews 6:13-16
King James Version (KJV)
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
Luke 13:23-28
King James Version (KJV)
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
So what is a "work" from God's perspective? What happens to those that receive Christ but do not submit to the "good works foreordained that we should walk in them".(eph 2:7-10). It seems to me that "Lordship Salvation" is "easy believism" and that there is no difference. The distinction is Man's not God's as we are either the servants of Self and Sin unto Death or servants of Christ and Righteousness unto eternal life.(Romans 6) I was reading about "Lordship Salvation" and His argument was that if you disobeyed ONCE than you are basically a Hypocrite and failure to adhere to "Lordship Salvation". I think it's clear that this was HIS interpretation as it is clear that we will sin after the new birth with rewashing through the blood of Jesus in Confession. It is also clear that conformity to the image of God's Son is a process of growth within the Christian.
So I think we must be careful about interposing OUR definitions into God's Word.
Your statements reveal you to not be Christian, and that you do not believe the Bible. If you want to talk about what religions teach instead of what God has revealed in His Word then you should go to the religion forum. That's what it's for. Christianity is not a man made religion, but is a relationship with God through Jesus Christ who Himself is the Second Person of the Trinity.
You are revealing double-minded thinking yet again. You judge Azrael as not a Christian . . . but your accusation is about belief in the Bible . . . which is Bibleianity. You correctly describe Christianity as a relationship with Christ within who abides with us as the Comforter . . . but you base all your faith on words "written in ink" instead of those God has "written in our hearts" under the New Covenant.
Quote:
Justice took care of the sins of the world at the Cross. Jesus paid the penalty for any sin that anyone will ever commit. Including any sin that a believer will commit after salvation. Sin is therefore not the issue in salvation. The only issue in salvation is whether or not a person turns to Christ for eternal life. Any sin the believer commits after salvation is handled as a family matter (Hebrews 12:4-11). The believer will be disciplined as a child of God in time for willful sin, and he will lose eternal rewards as a result of neglecting his spiritual life, but he cannot lose eternal life.
More easy believer "turning to Christ." That is not a passive act. Calling Him "Lord, Lord" will do no good whatsoever. It requires following Christ's commands to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. How do you "turn to Christ?"
Why did he have to suffer?
Why did he have to die?
If god is all powerful then god can and does show mercy with out the need for blood.
I still believe Jesus is Messiah and son of god, I just do not believe in sacrifice and never will.
What those people did to Jesus was evil, I have seen the passion of christ, no peaceful man should be treated that way.
You have no authority to claim what I am or am not.
Jesus is the Messiah, Son of God, and King of this earth but his king and father is God. Jesus is not god.
Regardless of our vast theological differences we are both Christians.
Why was their even a penalty if god was going to provide a free scape goat path to salvation?
If God is All Powerful, then God doesn't need a price, mercy can be shown with out a price. Therefore the whole ritual was pointless because god wouldn't have needed it. But god does want repentance from us.
As I said, your own words reveal that you are not a Christian. You cannot claim that you believe that Jesus is the Messiah and then turn around and say that He did not sacrifice Himself for our sins. To say that Jesus did not die a substitutionary sacrificial death on our behalf is to deny the very heart of the gospel.
To say that God didn't require a payment for sin is to ignore the fact that God is holy and that the demands of His holiness must be satisfied.
To deny that Jesus is God and that it is a sin to worship Him (God the Father called Jesus God and commanded the angels to worship Him -Hebrews 1:6-9) is contrary to what the Bible teaches.
To make these claims as you did in post # 277 - ''God has revealed to me that the Trinity is false, Blood Sacrifice was never needed, Christ Worship is a sin, Jesus was Messiah and son of God but not God and did not need to die for our sins because God is all powerful and can do any thing.'', and ''The age and popularity of the New Testament does not prove it is valid in any way. Furthermore it was flung together by a bunch of people.'', shows that you are a false teacher and are not a Christian. You may not like being told that, but it is the truth.
You are revealing double-minded thinking yet again. You judge Azrael as not a Christian . . . but your accusation is about belief in the Bible . . . which is Bibleianity. You correctly describe Christianity as a relationship with Christ within who abides with us as the Comforter . . . but you base all your faith on words "written in ink" instead of those God has "written in our hearts" under the New Covenant. More easy believer "turning to Christ." That is not a passive act. Calling Him "Lord, Lord" will do no good whatsoever. It requires following Christ's commands to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. How do you "turn to Christ?"
False teachers reveal themselves to be as such by what they teach. You call the gospel a lie by claiming that Jesus did not bear the sins of the world in His own body and denying that He paid the penalty for them. Your words about loving God and each other do not disguise your rejection of God's Word.
And the only thing written in the heart of the believer is that which has been transferred from the Bible into the soul of the believer. And guess where you got those words about ''being written in our hearts''? And where did you learn about the commands of God? You got them from the Bible!!! From those words ''written in ink'' which you disregard when they get in the way of your personal belief system.
False teachers reveal themselves to be as such by what they teach. You call the gospel a lie by claiming that Jesus did not bear the sins of the world in His own body and denying that He paid the penalty for them. Your words about loving God and each other do not disguise your rejection of God's Word.
There is no doubt whatsoever that Jesus bore the sins of the world (as reflected in the barbarity and savagery of our ancestors by scourging and crucifying Him) . . . but I reject that it was a penalty for anything or that God required it. It was savage ignorance (sinfulness) . . ."they knew not what they did" . . . because of the veil of ignorance (blind minds) over reading the OT.
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And the only thing written in the heart of the believer is that which has been transferred from the Bible into the soul of the believer.
You believe WE supplant the role of God who said HE would write in our hearts??
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And guess where you got those words about ''being written in our hearts''? And where did you learn about the commands of God? You got them from the Bible!!! From those words ''written in ink'' which you disregard when they get in the way of your personal belief system.
I have always acknowledged the Bible as inspired by God and USEFUL (profitable) for instruction . . . so what is your point? Of course we learn from the Bible. It tells us of Christ, how to identify Him, what His status is, how to validate Him through prophesy, what He taught, etc. etc. I disregard nothing. I interpret what is there using the "mind of Christ" to lift the veil of ignorance over the OT.
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