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That is the question in the OP and so far I have not seen any argument to refute the conclusion that the term as used is reference to a plan and the expected classes of respondents to the message concerning that plan as opposed to choice of individuals. It seems to be the only interpretation that fits all the elements concerning choice, spreading the message of God's love and the other imperatives we see concerning "the Way."
Define "free will". Why does "free will" necessitate the ability to choose not to?
Or why do you seem to think that mankind has more freedom than God? God can't choose to sin.
I must be missing something here?? Are you suggesting that 'free will' does not exist? (That doesn't sound like your regular post-thinking?).
Free will IS the ability to choose --- If no choice exists, then free will does not exist and/or serves no function. God allowed the alternative to love and obedience to enter the world, because of 'free will'. I guess that I'm defining 'free will ' as free moral agency, independent thought, choices ...
God is sinless and perfect; Sin cannot exist in God's Holy presence. Sin is entirely an earth-based, human condition ... that man will NOT carry with him into heaven. Saying "God can't choose to sin" is a lot like asking, "Can God create a rock that is too heavy for Him to life?"
In either case, it sounds like you are suggesting that both sin and love are imposed conditions(?)
I must be missing something here?? Are you suggesting that 'free will' does not exist? (That doesn't sound like your regular post-thinking?).
Can you give me a Biblical reference for it? I'm asking you to define it.
Quote:
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2001). (Heb 10:12). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
Free will IS the ability to choose --- If no choice exists, then free will does not exist and/or serves no function. God allowed the alternative to love and obedience to enter the world, because of 'free will'. I guess that I'm defining 'free will ' as free moral agency, independent thought, choices ...
I've never said we can't choose. But I am saying that we're unable to choose God without him first enabling us to do so. Jesus said that without God calling us, we can't come to him.
God can't choose to sin. Does that mean he can't choose to love?
Quote:
God is sinless and perfect; Sin cannot exist in God's Holy presence. Sin is entirely an earth-based, human condition ... that man will NOT carry with him into heaven. Saying "God can't choose to sin" is a lot like asking, "Can God create a rock that is too heavy for Him to life?"
And likewise, human beings are mired in sin. We cannot choose God without him first calling us.
NCI Information Systemssaiah 53:4-5, "Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him and by His scourging we are healed."
Heb 10:12: "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,"
In Hebrews 10, we see the image of the Priest, sacrificing daily. In the temple, there was no chair--because he was always working--daily making an offering. Jesus did one sacrifice, though--and then sat down. He need not do any more. It's over.[/quote]
Ephesians 1:13 is especially supportive of my position: "13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
NCI Information Systemssaiah 53:4-5, "Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him and by His scourging we are healed."
Heb 10:12: "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,"
In Hebrews 10, we see the image of the Priest, sacrificing daily. In the temple, there was no chair--because he was always working--daily making an offering. Jesus did one sacrifice, though--and then sat down. He need not do any more. It's over.
That did not answer the question...
Was this post in reference to something that has been said in this thread?
And likewise, human beings are mired in sin. We cannot choose God without him first calling us.
As I have said elsewhere, our decisions are fairly deterministic, but there is a spirit active in giving us information by which we can make decisions that are free choices.
Who says we are required to love Him of "our own free will"?...
lol, exactly. We don't agree on some things, Richard, but I do like the way your mind works. We are under a lot of delusion about what makes us tick and what God requires of us, HIS CREATION. If we are defective in any way, who is to blame? But we have a creator who doesn't throw away what for awhile seems to be defective. I know that is a difference in our views but I just can't conceive a creator gets glory in trashing something that He created. We have some accountability before Him, very true, but He took the responsibility for our sins on the cross. ALL of our sins, even not believing in/on his son for a short time. In my opinion and how I view the cross and God's overall plan. The consequence of sin is death and we all suffer that. But Christ's death and resurrection is the reason we are all resurrected. That's not the end though, all must be salted with fire and come to the complete knowledge of God and much or all of that will happen after resurrection when the firstfruits rule. My humble opinion of course.
Really, he only created these vessels but when it comes to our brains, the chemicals that dictate many of our emotions etc, we are solely responsible for that? I do agree, it would appear that we can train ourselves to behave a certain way if all our circuits are firing normally. Yet we are all SO DIFFERENT in so many ways, and for thousands of different reasons, based on thousands of circumstances and atoms and genetics, how can we think we really direct our own life, we don't control the choices we have to make. Why do we think our final choice is solely up to us? In a way it is, but we will ALWAYS choose the best alternative for ourselves if it doesn't hurt someone we love, or if we have a loving nature, we may bite the bullet so that a loved one doesn't suffer because of a choice we HAD to make, usually a choice we didn't choose to have to make. I think too much and ponder too much and darned if I can stop it. It's who I am, not because that's what I want to be but I have no choice, lol. I love the people who think everything is black or white, right or wrong with no shades of gray. But then, I don't believe they chose that for themselves. lol
Scripture says we are born from above, NOT by our own wills, so how does making a 'decision for Christ' affect our destiny? If we do, it's because HE opened our hearts to believe.
I love having my view now. I can rest so much easier, that tho things may not be rosy for awhile for some, God is working all things after the counsel of His Own Will, and He wills all men to be saved.
Wishing a bright blessed day to all on this, the day the Lord has made.
..... I'm not sure I follow your line of thinking. --- I was speaking of 'love' itself. Can it still be 'love' without free will (I think not). What is it if we say we "love God" ... yet, have no 'free will' to choose? From the beginning, people have chosen to 'love' or 'not love' God. The admonishment to 'love God' and 'love one another' throughout scripture is an imperative that requires the exercise of free will.
Are you simply using rhetorical questions and snappy one-liners here ... or do you actually have answers based on thought-out positions or scriptural research.
Scripture states that we are all gone astray...we do not seek after righteousness nor are we capable of doing so...we are dead in sin...we are slaves to sin...blind...if all this is true we are incapable of choosing righteousness, if so, then how do we have free will?...
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