Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Also the second coming concept was utterly foreign to the disciples.
If it was a foreign concept, then why did Jesus give them the illustration at Luke 19 vs 11 to 15 ?___________
Because Jesus' followers developed a wrong time frame that the kingdom coming would be in their life time, so in order for them to avoid such wrong thinking for their benefit and ours that the kingdom coming would Not be instantly or immediately at that time, Jesus, as the nobleman, would first go away to a ' far country ' [ heaven ] before he would return in glory at the future time of Matthew 25 vs 31,32.
At Luke 22 vs 29,30 Jesus made a covenant with them to rule as judges.
Were any of Jesus' followers ruling in the first century [ Rev. 5 vs 9,10 ] ?
There would be No reasons for the questions at 1st Cor. 4 vs 7,8 if they were already about to begin ruling.
He was not speaking of "this generation" in terms of we think today at all.
He was talking about the human condition as it existed (and it exists exactly the
same now). Essentially he was speaking about the condition of the Earth, Heaven,
Devil, everything which makes up this paradigm we live under.
The key is to be found in the next sentence: Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass.
He is the Creator of Heaven and Earth and all. His Word created it, Satan
ruined it, and man fell under the spell of Satan.
It's all gonna change back. Like in the Our Father: " On Earth as it is in Heaven " - going to join and restore fully then
His next creation will take over, with some of us in it, but you see.... all that time HIS WORD never ever changed. Hallelujah
That includes all the animals and every living thing that ever lived.
before anyone criticizes words of English translations they need to understand
the entire Biblical source translation feedline which varies in different scripts. http://hebrewgospel.com/Disappearanc...w%20Gospel.php
[quote=Snowball7;31035255]He was not speaking of "this generation" in terms of we think today at all.
He was talking about the human condition as it existed (and it exists exactly the
same now). Essentially he was speaking about the condition of the Earth, Heaven,
Devil, everything which makes up this paradigm we live under.
The key is to be found in the next sentence: Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass.
He is the Creator of Heaven and Earth and all. His Word created it, Satan
ruined it, and man fell under the spell of Satan.
It's all gonna change back. Like in the Our Father: " On Earth as it is in Heaven " - going to join and restore fully then
His next creation will take over, with some of us in it, but you see.... all that time HIS WORD never ever changed. Hallelujah
That includes all the animals and every living thing that ever lived.
RESPONSE:
Of course Jesus meant his contemporary generation unless you are claiming Jesus didn't understand what "this" means.
Paul in 1 Thes 4, "we who are alive"and "some standing here will not taste death" in Mark 9.1 say the same thing.
Pretending "This generation" in Matthew really didn't mean "This generation" is a ploy to avoid the error in scripture.
From the New American Bible Revised Edition
Matt 24:34 "Amen, I say to you, this generation* will not pass away until all these things have taken place."
Footnote: [24:34]* The difficulty raised by this verse cannot be satisfactorily removed by the supposition that this generation means the Jewish people throughout the course of their history, much less the entire human race.
ancient warrior, you're still stuck on the current, English language usage of
the term. That's not what He meant.
The original, Greek translation of Matthew's Hebrew gospel, is the first written
account we have. It says "tauta genetai"..... which the first English translators
interpreted as "this generation". But what is generation ? This is because when the KJV was translated, a people of common descent was one of the possible meanings of the English word "generation." My modern Merriam-Webster's Dictionary does not list this as a possible meaning, but my old 1908 Webster provides the following definition:
"6. Race; kind; family; breed; stock."
Shakespeare provides evidence of this old English use of the word:
"Thy mother's of my generation: what's she, if I be a dog?"
He was not speaking of "this generation" in terms of we think today at all.
He was talking about the human condition as it existed (and it exists exactly the
same now). Essentially he was speaking about the condition of the Earth, Heaven,
Devil, everything which makes up this paradigm we live under.
The key is to be found in the next sentence: Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass.
He is the Creator of Heaven and Earth and all. His Word created it, Satan
ruined it, and man fell under the spell of Satan.
It's all gonna change back. Like in the Our Father: " On Earth as it is in Heaven " - going to join and restore fully then
His next creation will take over, with some of us in it, but you see.... all that time HIS WORD never ever changed. Hallelujah
That includes all the animals and every living thing that ever lived. RESPONSE:
Of course Jesus meant his contemporary generation unless you are claiming Jesus didn't understand what "this" means.
Paul in 1 Thes 4, "we who are alive"and "some standing here will not taste death" in Mark 9.1 say the same thing.
Pretending "This generation" in Matthew really didn't mean "This generation" is a ploy to avoid the error in scripture.
From the New American Bible Revised Edition
Matt 24:34 "Amen, I say to you, this generation* will not pass away until all these things have taken place."
Footnote: [24:34]* The difficulty raised by this verse cannot be satisfactorily removed by the supposition that this generation means the Jewish people throughout the course of their history, much less the entire human race.
What about the generation of Matthew 23 v 36 ?________ [ Exodus 20 v 5 ]
That first-century generation came to an end, so to speak, in the year 70 when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans.
Mark 9 vs 1,2 is in connection to Matthew 17 v 9 [ the transfiguration Vision ] Vision or Picture of Jesus' future glory time.
-Matt 25 vs 31,32.
God is going to bring to ruin all who bring ruin to earth - Rev. 11 v 18 B.
God's earth abides forever - Ecc. 1 v 4 B
The wicked will not abide forever - Psalm 92 v 7; Proverbs 2 vs 21,22
Since neither earth nor God's Word [ Bible ] will never cease to exist [ Isaiah 45 v 18; Psalm 104 v 5 ] then by saying heaven and earth would pass would mean it is impossible for that to happen just as it is impossible for anyone to get rid of the Bible.
Not a next creation take over, but the living-on-earth humble 'sheep' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32 will be the first to be part of Jesus' 1000-year kingdom reign over earth, because those 'sheep' are the ones who will come out of the great tribulation alive on earth.- Rev. 7 v 14
ancient warrior, you're still stuck on the current, English language usage of
the term. That's not what He meant.
The original, Greek translation of Matthew's Hebrew gospel, is the first written
account we have. It says "tauta genetai"..... which the first English translators
interpreted as "this generation". But what is generation ? This is because when the KJV was translated, a people of common descent was one of the possible meanings of the English word "generation." My modern Merriam-Webster's Dictionary does not list this as a possible meaning, but my old 1908 Webster provides the following definition:
"6. Race; kind; family; breed; stock."
Shakespeare provides evidence of this old English use of the word:
"Thy mother's of my generation: what's she, if I be a dog?"
First of all, Matthew was not the first gospel written. Mark was. Secondly, Paul wrote the 1Thes 4 prophecy of the Second Coming about 30 years before Matthew wrote. Third, a bible translation of the 1500's or Shakespere's "Old English" meaning of words is hardly the same as the meaning in writings in koine Greek from the first century.
You seem hung up in a misunderstanding of the plain meaning of the koine Greek phrase "This generation."
Study all the evidence, not just the one passage.It is abundantly clear that Jesus' contemporary generation is being referred to.
1 Thes 4:15
"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever"
Mark 9:1
9 And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.â€
Mark 13:30
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Matt 26:62-64 " And the high priest stood up and said, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?â€1 63 zBut Jesus remained silent. aAnd the high priest said to him, b“I adjure you by cthe living God, dtell us if you are ethe Christ, fthe Son of God.†64 Jesus said to him, g“You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.â€
Mat 10:23 So when they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. For truly I tell you, you certainly will not have gone through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 08-21-2013 at 07:12 AM..
Reason: typo
08-21-2013, 10:49 AM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Matthew 24's 'this generation' is problematic if for no other reason than it is vague and ambiguous - except for the literal meaning of the phrase which you would think has more weight - I mean who would think that if it does not mean that generation that it is not vague and ambiguous esp. with all the interprtive mechanics that go into coming-up with alternatives. It has at least five different interpretations all of which leave us in a epistemological knot with problems and counter problems. It frankly is one of those verses that become unhelpful now that it has been examined to death - yet suspposedly when it was 'inspired' it was something of a help for followers to understand something about the return of the Lord - so much for Divine guidance.
By the way the idea that generation is race, etc. is the least likely of the interpretations. More likely, than that, it is in reference to the type of generation - that is a wicked and perverse one. But if that is the case why not just use those adjectives as Jesus did in the previous chapter? It is best to put this verse aside and use other verses to gather insight into the timing of the return of the Lord. As such it clear that the return was to take place within that generation as Ancient Warrior pointed out with the verses he quoted.
Matthew 24's 'this generation' is problematic if for no other reason than it is vague and ambiguous - except for the literal meaning of the phrase which you would think has more weight - I mean who would think that if it does not mean that generation that it is not vague and ambiguous esp. with all the interprtive mechanics that go into coming-up with alternatives. It has at least five different interpretations all of which leave us in a epistemological knot with problems and counter problems. It frankly is one of those verses that become unhelpful now that it has been examined to death - yet suspposedly when it was 'inspired' it was something of a help for followers to understand something about the return of the Lord - so much for Divine guidance.
By the way the idea that generation is race, etc. is the least likely of the interpretations. More likely, than that, it is in reference to the type of generation - that is a wicked and perverse one. But if that is the case why not just use those adjectives as Jesus did in the previous chapter? It is best to put this verse aside and use other verses to gather insight into the timing of the return of the Lord. As such it clear that the return was to take place within that generation as Ancient Warrior pointed out with the verses he quoted.
RESPONSE:
>>it is vague and ambiguous<<
Given that there are five other prophecies saying the same thing using different terms and given the plain meaning of words, the meaning of "This generation" is very clear.
This:
a. Used to refer to the person or thing present, nearby, or just mentioned: This is my cat. These are my tools.
b. Used to refer to what is about to be said: Now don't laugh when you hear this.
c. Used to refer to the present event, action, or time: said he'd be back before this.
Generation:
a. A group of individuals born and living about the same time.
b. A group of generally contemporaneous individuals regarded as having common cultural or social characteristics and attitudes:
"This Generation" not "that generation" or even "a generation." But perhaps some people's belief system can not accept that it simply didn't happen as foretold even if other prophecies say the same thing.
08-21-2013, 11:27 AM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior
RESPONSE:
>>it is vague and ambiguous<<
Given that there are five other prophecies saying the same thing using different terms and given the plain meaning of words, the meaning of "This generation" is very clear.
This:
a. Used to refer to the person or thing present, nearby, or just mentioned: This is my cat. These are my tools.
b. Used to refer to what is about to be said: Now don't laugh when you hear this.
c. Used to refer to the present event, action, or time: said he'd be back before this.
Generation:
a. A group of individuals born and living about the same time.
b. A group of generally contemporaneous individuals regarded as having common cultural or social characteristics and attitudes:
"This Generation" not "that generation" or even "a generation." But perhaps some people's belief system can not accept that it simply didn't happen as foretold even if other prophecies say the same thing.
Yes that's what I said - you should have read it more clearly. Don't think I don't think it very clear. My point is if we grant the Believers ideas that there are 'possibilities' other than that then it only leaves us with a vague and ambiguous text - in other words no certainty - and what value is that to the person who is trying to figure out what is being said esp. in light of the fact that the God who suspposedly inspired this text was doing so for guidance - how ironic.
Yes that's what I said - you should have read it more clearly. Don't think I don't think it very clear. My point is if we grant the Believers ideas that there are 'possibilities' other than that then it only leaves us with a vague and ambiguous text - in other words no certainty - and what value is that to the person who is trying to figure out what is being said esp. in light of the fact that the God who suspposedly inspired this text was doing so for guidance - how ironic.
RESPONSE:
>> Don't think I don't think it very clear<<
I agree that 71 word sentences are not generally clear. It is wise to limit sentences to about 18 words.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
