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Probably because the only place you can find the Trinity is in the creeds, Twin . . . as Katz has repeatedly tried to point out.
This is simply an OP that shows how God revealed himself as the Triune God in the scriptures ... there is enough in scriptures to adequately substantiate that any claims of " the only place you can find the Trinity is in the creeds" is wanton hardness to accept what God has revealed.
1JN 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one." The one God can be spoken of as having three witnesses in Heaven's Court because the Son completed the record with His Testimony.
And the proof that this is valid to God is that there are three things that bear record on the earth that the Son left behind as both evidence and as an inheritance.
1JN 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water [from His side], and the blood [from His side and all over]: and these three agree in one." The Spirit prompted this all to be recorded as a witness to all the world from that time forward and it is the Spirit who continues to testify of Christ by written, oral means and directly to the heart.
1JN 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one." The one God can be spoken of as having three witnesses in Heaven's Court because the Son completed the record with His Testimony.
And the proof that this is valid to God is that there are three things that bear record on the earth that the Son left behind as both evidence and as an inheritance.
1JN 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water [from His side], and the blood [from His side and all over]: and these three agree in one." The Spirit prompted this all to be recorded as a witness to all the world from that time forward and it is the Spirit who continues to testify of Christ by written, oral means and directly to the heart.
You can ignore the controversy and pretend as most Trinitarians do that the Johannine comma was NOT deliberately added to support the Trinitarian doctrine . . . but it was. It was not in any version of John prior to the 5th century. Erasmus didn't add it until 1552. The original contained only reference to the earth . . . as in this typical version:
7. For there are three that testify:
8. the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
You can ignore the controversy and pretend as most Trinitarians do that the Johannine comma was NOT deliberately added to support the Trinitarian doctrine . . . but it was. It was not in any version of John prior to the 5th century. Erasmus didn't add it until 1552. The original contained only reference to the earth . . . as in this typical version:
7. For there are three that testify:
8. the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
That is a leap of false judgment. I am not pretending anything as you accuse. I am not a Theologian and had no idea of what a Johannine comma is until you mentioned it and I just now did some research on it. Whether it was in an earlier version and omitted and then added back in or never was I do not know. As far as I am concerned, the statement in and of itself is true and I couldn't have said it better. The fact is there are three that do bear record in Heaven.
My understanding of Trinity did not come from that Scripture but from the Spirit and a host of other Scripture that make clear what Trinity means. I used that so called Johannine comma not realizing the controversy concerning it. So I do not need to use it as quote from the Bible but I see no reason not to use it as true statement.
Many Jews do not as yet receive the witness of the Son but they still have the witness of the Father who spoke of the Son and He sent the Holy Spirit as witness through the Prophets that God can be thought of in the plural as we/us. This was made known from the beginning. Yes, these three bear witness and for good reason as in for the salvation of the world's sake reason.
Nevertheless it is good statement of Trinity and I have lots of other statements not even written that come from God. God the Father is in Heaven with Jesus/Word at His right hand and the Holy Spirit declares to the Angels and all who are in Heaven that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
My understanding of Trinity did not come from that Scripture but from the Spirit and a host of other Scripture that make clear what Trinity means. I used that so called Johannine comma not realizing the controversy concerning it. So I do not need to use it as quote from the Bible but I see no reason not to use it as true statement.
I will only repeat what I said to Mike about ignoring the common sense reading of so many verses using such a complicated "mystery" as the explanation. If you have a better reason than his complicated hypostatic kenosis nonsense . . . please enlighten me. If I need to I can supplement the list of verses with many, many more. How do you justify ignoring the common sense interpretation of so much of the NT to maintain this "mystery?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You have to ignore or use convoluted explanations and esoteric jargon to reconcile the MANY scripture verses from Christ that express that God is separate from Him and He is not God but the Son of God. Why do you reject all the common sense meanings of these myriad verses in favor of your complicated "hypostatic kenosis analysis?"
John 8:17-18 “It is written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one who bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me,” Did He bear witness to Himself?
John 17:3 “This is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” . This is the language Jesus used in solemn prayer to “His Father and our Father.”
Matt 3:17“And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,” Is a son the same as His Father? Did He just please Himself?
Acts 10:38.“God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power,” How can anyone be anointed with a person (Holy Ghost)? That's like saying I anoint you with me. Did He anoint Himself?
Heb. 3:1. “Consider the ….High-Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus,” Is He a priest to Himself?
1 Tim. 2:5. “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” He cannot mediate between Himself.
1 John 4:14. “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world." Did He send Himself?
Heb. 3:1-2.“Consider the Apostle,...Christ Jesus, who was faithful to him that appointed him,” Did He apoint Himself to be an Apostle to Himself?
Rom. 8:34. “It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us,” Who is He interceding with . . Himself?
1 Cor. 11:3.“I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of every woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God,” IS He the head of Himself?
1 Cor. 3:23. “And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s,” We belong to Christ and Christ belongs to Himself?
John 10:29. “My father is greater than all,” Is He greater than Himself?
John 14:28 “My Father is greater than I,” Apparently not.
Matt 19:17.“Why callest thou me Good? There is none good but one, that is God,” IF He isn't Good only God is than how can He be God?
John 17:21.“I and my Father are one, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us,” If this means the esoteric nonsense that you think it does then are we also "hypostatically kenotic?"
John 20:17.“Jesus saith unto her, ….Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God,” Is His God Himself?
There are a bajllion more, Mike . . . how do you reconcile using your complicated rationale to reject ALL these common sense readings of the verses.
Is this what you think the purpose of this OP is ... to prove you wrong, cause it's not.
This is simply an OP that shows how God revealed himself as the Triune God in the scriptures, which puzzles me as to the fact I've yet to reference in this OP anything regarding the creeds .. why do you?
Why do I? Because I see no evidence in the Bible that God is what you claim Him to be? I believe in the Godhead, a divine Father, Son and Holy Ghost whose unity is in will, purpose, mind, and heart. There are numerous passages that attest to this, but no verses that attest to their being one "in substance."
I will only repeat what I said to Mike about ignoring the common sense reading of so many verses using such a complicated "mystery" as the explanation. If you have a better reason than his complicated hypostatic kenosis nonsense . . . please enlighten me. If I need to I can supplement the list of verses with many, many more. How do you justify ignoring the common sense interpretation of so much of the NT to maintain this "mystery?"
It is not my job to enlighten you. I only share my understandings that you may or may not appreciate and clearly you do not. I have no difficulty understanding that God was on the earth in an office of Priesthood/Son and addressing God as Father; the Lord speaking to the Lord and both "I am". Now granted this not the common sense of mankind but the Mind of Christ is not common. Explain to me where the end of the universe is or what happened before time was created, or what did God do before Angels or man where created. All these things defy common sense because we are not equipped to understand things beyond our domain. So then while it appears to you clearly what role Christ has, is it fully the whole truth or is it like we say that there is so much more to it as other Scriptures demonstrate?
The Lord can speak to the Lord because of that marvelous attribute of Trinity that no one else in all creation nor in Heaven processes nor ever can. Creating goes beyond mere being able to create someone less then Himself but having someone equal to Himself who reflexes all that He Himself is but not known of until housed in flesh and blood. Only the Trinity doctrine is adequate to explain this. I am not called by God an idol worshiper if I worship Christ because I can worship Christ as God, Savior, or Son of God or simply God as Father. I can thank God for His multiplex attributes because each fulfills a need in me that He put there.
It is not my job to enlighten you. I only share my understandings that you may or may not appreciate and clearly you do not. I have no difficulty understanding that God was on the earth in an office of Priesthood/Son and addressing God as Father; the Lord speaking to the Lord and both "I am". Now granted this not the common sense of mankind but the Mind of Christ is not common. Explain to me where the end of the universe is or what happened before time was created, or what did God do before Angels or man where created. All these things defy common sense because we are not equipped to understand things beyond our domain. So then while it appears to you clearly what role Christ has, is it fully the whole truth or is it like we say that there is so much more to it as other Scriptures demonstrate?
The Lord can speak to the Lord because of that marvelous attribute of Trinity that no one else in all creation nor in Heaven processes nor ever can. Creating goes beyond mere being able to create someone less then Himself but having someone equal to Himself who reflexes all that He Himself is but not known of until housed in flesh and blood. Only the Trinity doctrine is adequate to explain this. I am not called by God an idol worshiper if I worship Christ because I can worship Christ as God, Savior, or Son of God or simply God as Father. I can thank God for His multiplex attributes because each fulfills a need in me that He put there.
I see. I must confess I find it hard to understand why you would pretend to engage in reasoned discussion about material about which you hold to an unreasoned credulity. To each his own, I guess.
The ideology of something being formed by mentally combining various characteristics is merely a concept. Especially, if it’s a complex one; formed from a number of simpler elements or verses taken out of context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123
Could you please explain what you are saying and in reference to what.
I am a firm believer in the fact that what is called "Christianity" today; has been compromised with various concepts, which are rooted in ancient paganism.
For me, there is but ONE GOD or SPIRIT, from whom came ALL THINGS. It is unlikely that I will be able to explain, given that which you already believe to be truth.
"You will believe, what you believe; until you no longer believe it."
I see. I must confess I find it hard to understand why you would pretend to engage in reasoned discussion about material about which you hold to an unreasoned credulity. To each his own, I guess.
Of coarse that is what you think of everyone who does not agree with you. Perhaps you should stop engaging me and just post independent of me and you won't have to discuss my "unreasoned credulity". Credulity? I am 63 and as far back as I can remember, I have always believed what I wrote. So no, it is not something I have learned quickly and as time goes by I am even more convinced and understand it better. Have a good evening.
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