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It doesn't! Theologians do. Some of the classes I taught at the University would be considered difficult to grasp by most people. But some of them were more down-to-earth employing a lot of common sense. Whenever some of my students would express dismay at the material in the latter course . . . I would caution them NOT to over think it. That was reserved for the difficult courses. If simple material defies common sense and requires elaborate explanations to work around it . . . it is usually wrong. This is what has happened with the Trinity.
Our ignorant ancestors had no concept for consciousness as the embodiment of personhood. People in physical bodies were persons . . . not their minds. Even the concept of Spirit was not understood . . . and was feared. But Spirit is just another way to describe our consciousness/mind . . . the real source of who we are. Here in C-D we are not conversing with our body. We are conversing with our mind/consciousness. That is who we are and that is how we are recognized and it is how we define our personhood. God has no physical body. He is a Spirit . . . pure consciousness. He is Holy . . . so guess what His consciousness is . . . the Holy Spirit. So much for one of the three "persons" in the Trinity nonsense.
Jesus was a human being "begotten" by God (conceived by God). He is the "first fruit" and we are to follow as His adopted siblings. Jesus says the Father taught Him everything. This means He had direct contact with God's Holy Spirit (consciousness) as He grew and developed into a man. He was transforming His human consciousness into God's consciousness (Holy Spirit) . . . bringing God's consciousness (Holy Spirit) into the collective human consciousness forever. While He was alive we only had the benefit of His Holy Spirit through direct contact and teaching. But when He died and was "born again" (reborn as Spirit) . . . His Holy Spirit (Comforter) became available to us all in our consciousness . . . without His physical presence. Now we are in a similar position to Jesus who had the Father's Holy spirit to teach Him. But we have Christ's Holy Spirit (Comforter) to do so. That is how we can be guided to the truth God has "written in our hearts."
There are no Three Persons in the Trinity. There is only the ONE God and His Holy Spirit (consciousness) manifested in two ways . . . Christ's human consciousness as the first human reborn as Spirit and God the Father's Holy Spirit. They are one in SPIRIT (consciousness) . . . NOT three-persons-in-one . . . in some complicated hypo-whatever kenosis-whatsis mystery!!! We can be "born from above" (conceived by God) because Christ's Holy Spirit abides with us to "beget" our embryo Spirit . We too can transform our consciousness to Christ's agape love for us all (however imperfectly) through "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't. We will then be "quickened" by Christ the "quickening Spirit" and be "born again" as Spirit upon our physical death as Jesus was. We will be His siblings in God's family of love.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
That makes sense...In the OT the Spirit of God is the NTs Holy Spirit...I also see Yeshua as a man that pleased HaShem and received the Holy Spirit on the day of His baptism at the River Jordan...I see people in the OT that received the HS and were called Messiah also, but in the end they failed in their mission, unlike Yeshua...
Thanks. My only comment would be that the day of His baptism in the river was symbolically His "graduation" . . . an acknowledgement that His consciousness was now indeed the Holy Spirit . . . not that He received it on that day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Back up your statement with Scripture that there are not three 'Persons' in the Trinity. Don't just make empty claims.
Here is where Jesus tells us how He will come to us as the Comforter (Holy Spirit)
John 14:16-18 (King James Version)
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
The word Comforter is parakletos which means advocate. (There is only one advocate for us with God . . . Jesus.) The Spirit of Truth IS Christ who the world did not know . . . but they did because He dwelled with them . . . and HE shall (will) be IN them. He will not leave them comfortless (orphanos = without a teacher). He will come to them.
Quote:
I will show with Scripture that while God is a united One, He is Triune.
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear O Israel! The LORD[Yah-weh] is our God, the LORD is one [echad]!
In view of other Scripture such as Isaiah 9:6 and Zechariah 14:3-4 which refer to the Messiah as God, Echad suggests a unity of Persons in the Godhead in the same way that Echad is used of the unity of Adam and Eve.
Genesis 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh.
God is a united One. United by His essence or nature. But within the Godhead are three Persons, or centers of consciousness as shown below.
1.) God the Father. First Person of the Trinity:
Ephesians 1:5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ.
2.) God the Son. Second Person of the Trinity:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . 14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
3.) God the Holy Spirit. Third Person of the Trinity:
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4] "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
The following Scripture will attest to the fact that the Holy Spirit is a 'Person' who is distinct from the Father and from the Son.
2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God (reference to the Father) , and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
There are three who are spoken of in 2 Corinthians 13:14. The Lord Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit. One cannot have fellowship with a force, or with an attribute. One can only have fellowship with a person.
John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14] "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15] All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
As John 16:13-15 shows, the Holy Spirit can hear, He can speak and He can disclose that which He hears. And He is spoken of in the Masculine voice.
In this post you appear to be claiming that Jesus was just a man, and not God. However, in past posts, you have claimed that you believe that Jesus is God. So which is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
None of the above actually say the following:
"God is a united One. United by His essence or nature. But within the Godhead are three Persons, or centers of consciousness as shown below. "
Why keep posting passages "that seem to to indirectly imply in a round about way, but only if you presume that the Trinity one-substance doctrine is true before you actually read them."
If there is a passage or combination of passages that teaches "one in substance" and teaches it in a way that we cannot possibly mistake the intended meaning, please post it.
The Nicene/Athanasian Trinity does what it was designed to do. It stands on the razor's edge divide between strict monotheism and tritheism, while refusing to stand on either side. It tries to be both and neither. But it is not Biblical at all. If it was, we would see a passage explicitly say, "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are three separate persons, but they are one in substance." No such passage exists. If it did, there would be no debate on the issue.
I will let GOT's post stand in rebuttal of the rest of your theological dogma, Mike.
There is two basic veins that I knew would develop:
______________ VEIN 1___________________________________
The anti-Trinitarian find it possible to read:
ONE GOD (SINGULAR)
Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.”
1 Kings 8:16 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know thatthe LORD is God and that there is no other”....
yet somehow miraculously are unable to acknowledge that:
A SINGULAR GOD MAKES PLURAL REFERANCE TO HIMSELF
Isaiah 6:8 God says "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"—
Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us make man in our own image"
Genesis 3:22 God "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
Genesis 11:7 God says, "Let us go down and confuse their language."
which of course presents a problem ... to which several alternatives has been brought forth:
ignore it
divert the problem by pointing to the Creeds
invoke logic like that of Mr. Spock is the determining factor
tell us that all of the scholars just missed out of their expertise of Hebrew \ Greek
rely on and support fortune cookie sayings
when all else fails ... revert back to "The Bible does not teach the Trinity"
........... despite the Bible clearly teaches:
The Father
is called God .... Galatians 1:1, Revelations 1:6
The Son (Jesus)
(a) is called God ....John 1:1: 20:28, Rom 9:5, 1 John 5:20
(b) was accused in two separate events of blasphemy for wrongfully claiming himself to be God .... John 10:33, Luke 5:21
(c) was found guilty by trail of blasphemy and thus crucified .... Matthew 26:65, Mark 14:64
The Holy Spirit is called God
(a) by being lied to ... Acts 5:2-4
(b) by blasphemed against ... Matthew 12:32, Mark 3:29
**[1] the true experts of languages accused Jesus of being God when they connected "blasphemy = God"
“Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
and yet they used the same verbiage of "blasphemy" (= God \ claims to be God)
when Jesus said he was "God's Son" John 10:33
when under oath was ordered to answer if he was "the Messiah, the Son of God.” Luke 5:21
It's simple wanton blindness to reject the two are meant as a given fact when the "original" experts used the charge of "blasphemy" in both contexts.
--------------------------------------------------
** [2] the skeptic would do whatever to disregard the above especially when it comes to the Holy Spirit.
"blasphemy" = was the accusation of being God
that "blasphemy = God" was a given fact when the verbiage titles was used
The Holy Spirit
"the Messiah, the Son of God.”
God's Son
the Holy Spirit is not coming from \is the Father when in other scriptures he is distinctly identified
“Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit...... You have not lied to man but to God.”
for the anti-Trinitarian, it should have read something like
"you have lied to the Father"
you have lied to the Holy Spirit which comes from the Father"
"you have not lied to man but to __fill in the blank to something other than the singular "God"__
CONCLUSION:
This is how the Bible teaches it ... though beyond human comprehension ... and is as how God revealed it.
Last edited by twin.spin; 08-26-2013 at 11:49 AM..
Reason: spacing gremlins
Twin.Spin, you do a fine job setting forth the problem: The Bible references a singular plural "Gods" throughout the Old Testament. In the New Testament, the Bible teaches the existence and three persons with all the infinite power, knowledge, etc that we attribute to God. It's a real dilemma. The Bible keeps referring to a singular plural whenever referencing God (Elohim.) What does it all mean exactly?
What you have not done is prove that the compromise/solution we call The Trinity -- the compromise that Eccumenical Councils of the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries (councils of men and not revelation from God) came up is actually eternal truth. Fact is, there are countless possible entirely Biblical solutions.
twin spin apparently doesn't read previous posts on the same subject.
>>A SINGULAR GOD MAKES PLURAL REFERANCE TO HIMSELF
Isaiah 6:8 God says "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"—
Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us make man in our own image"
Genesis 3:22 God "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
Genesis 11:7 God says, "Let us go down and confuse their language."<<
Majestic plural - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The majestic plural (pluralis maiestatis in Latin, literally, "the plural of majesty"), is the use of a plural pronoun to refer to a single person holding a high office, such as a monarch, bishop, or pope. It is also called the royal pronoun, the royal "we" or the Victorian "we". The more general word for the use of we to refer to oneself is nosism. However the use as majestic plural (to denote the excellence, power, and dignity of the person who speaks or writes) is the most common one."
Twin.Spin, you do a fine job setting forth the problem: The Bible references a singular plural "Gods" throughout the Old Testament. In the New Testament, the Bible teaches the existence and three persons with all the infinite power, knowledge, etc that we attribute to God. It's a real dilemma. The Bible keeps referring to a singular plural whenever referencing God (Elohim.) What does it all mean exactly?
What you have not done is prove that the compromise/solution we call The Trinity -- the compromise that Eccumenical Councils of the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries (councils of men and not revelation from God) came up is actually eternal truth. Fact is, there are countless possible entirely Biblical solutions.
RESPONSE:
The existence of the Trinity states that there are three "persons" in one God. The concept had to be developed when the belief in the divinity of Jesus began sometime around 85 AD. to avoid belief in polytheism if there were two divine persons; God the Father and a God the Son (biterianism). The Holy Spirit was added later(trinitarianism).
By definiton, all three persons of the Trinity are co-eternal, consubstantial, andcoequal.
However, we are told that:
(a) The Father is unbotten.
(b)The son is begotten and proceeds from the Father.
(c) The Holy spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son
To be coequal then; a=b=c. (But c=b=a; b=c=a, too)
So God the Father would also have to be begotten and proceed from the Son and the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit would also be unbegotten, etc.
Thus, logically and realistically, they would not be coequal.
Twin.Spin, you do a fine job setting forth the problem: The Bible references a singular plural "Gods" throughout the Old Testament. In the New Testament, the Bible teaches the existence and three persons with all the infinite power, knowledge, etc that we attribute to God. It's a real dilemma. The Bible keeps referring to a singular plural whenever referencing God (Elohim.) What does it all mean exactly?
What you have not done is prove that the compromise/solution we call The Trinity -- the compromise that Eccumenical Councils of the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries (councils of men and not revelation from God) came up is actually eternal truth. Fact is, there are countless possible entirely Biblical solutions.
That is not what I say that what scriptures teaches .. a singular plural "Gods
I make it very clear that
There is only one God
it never speaks of when the one God speaks to the persons of the Deity (aka "Trinity), it never refers to them as "God's" as you are suggesting
"Whom shall I send? And who will go for us Gods?"—
"Let usGods make man in our own image"
"The man has now become like one of us Gods, knowing good and evil."
"Let us Gods go down and confuse their language."
Oh ... this isn't about the validity of the creeds, which as stated earlier, when one can no longer address the reality that scriptures do teach this Deity (our coined word is Trinity) .. the anti-Trinitarians will divert the focus away from their undeniable unbelief and refocus it to the creeds.
Last edited by twin.spin; 08-26-2013 at 01:09 PM..
twin spin apparently doesn't read previous posts on the same subject.
>>A SINGULAR GOD MAKES PLURAL REFERANCE TO HIMSELF
Isaiah 6:8 God says "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"—
Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us make man in our own image"
Genesis 3:22 God "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
Genesis 11:7 God says, "Let us go down and confuse their language."<<
Majestic plural - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The majestic plural (pluralis maiestatis in Latin, literally, "the plural of majesty"), is the use of a plural pronoun to refer to a single person holding a high office, such as a monarch, bishop, or pope. It is also called the royal pronoun, the royal "we" or the Victorian "we". The more general word for the use of we to refer to oneself is nosism. However the use as majestic plural (to denote the excellence, power, and dignity of the person who speaks or writes) is the most common one."
sorry to disappoint you ... just because I can see through the anti-Trinitarians rejection of the truth doesn't mean I haven't read it.
Seriously ... Wikipedia ?? .... the same Wikipedia known for being subject to biased input?
This OP is about how it is taught ... not if it is enough to convince the wantonly skeptic of their unbelief.
There is two basic veins that I knew would develop:
______________ VEIN 1___________________________________
The anti-Trinitarian find it possible to read:
ONE GOD (SINGULAR)
Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.”
1 Kings 8:16 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know thatthe LORD is God and that there is no other”....
yet somehow miraculously are unable to acknowledge that:
A SINGULAR GOD MAKES PLURAL REFERANCE TO HIMSELF
Isaiah 6:8 God says "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"—
Genesis 1:26 God says "Let us make man in our own image"
Genesis 3:22 God "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."
Genesis 11:7 God says, "Let us go down and confuse their language."
which of course presents a problem ... to which several alternatives has been brought forth:
ignore it
divert the problem by pointing to the Creeds
invoke logic like that of Mr. Spock is the determining factor
tell us that all of the scholars just missed out of their expertise of Hebrew \ Greek
rely on and support fortune cookie sayings
when all else fails ... revert back to "The Bible does not teach the Trinity"
........... despite the Bible clearly teaches:
The Father
is called God .... Galatians 1:1, Revelations 1:6
The Son (Jesus)
(a) is called God ....John 1:1: 20:28, Rom 9:5, 1 John 5:20
(b) was accused in two separate events of blasphemy for wrongfully claiming himself to be God .... John 10:33, Luke 5:21
(c) was found guilty by trail of blasphemy and thus crucified .... Matthew 26:65, Mark 14:64
The Holy Spirit is called God
(a) by being lied to ... Acts 5:2-4
(b) by blasphemed against ... Matthew 12:32, Mark 3:29
**[1] the true experts of languages accused Jesus of being God when they connected "blasphemy = God"
“Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
and yet they used the same verbiage of "blasphemy" (= God \ claims to be God)
when Jesus said he was "God's Son" John 10:33
when under oath was ordered to answer if he was "the Messiah, the Son of God.” Luke 5:21
It's simple wanton blindness to reject the two are meant as a given fact when the "original" experts used the charge of "blasphemy" in both contexts.
--------------------------------------------------
** [2] the skeptic would do whatever to disregard the above especially when it comes to the Holy Spirit.
"blasphemy" = was the accusation of being God
that "blasphemy = God" was a given fact when the verbiage titles was used
The Holy Spirit
"the Messiah, the Son of God.”
God's Son
the Holy Spirit is not coming from \is the Father when in other scriptures he is distinctly identified
“Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit...... You have not lied to man but to God.”
for the anti-Trinitarian, it should have read something like
"you have lied to the Father"
you have lied to the Holy Spirit which comes from the Father"
"you have not lied to man but to __fill in the blank to something other than the singular "God"__
CONCLUSION:
This is how the Bible teaches it ... though beyond human comprehension ... and is as how God revealed it.
Your reading the plurality into a form that the plurality is not. For the plurality your referring to which is Elohim is spoken of as such:
For the term Eloë in the Jewish language denotes God, while Elōeim and Eleōuth in the Hebrew language signify “that which contains all.” So your seeing "that which contains all" being denoted as plural but as you can see that doesn't mean more than one.
Thanks. My only comment would be that the day of His baptism in the river was symbolically His "graduation" . . . an acknowledgement that His consciousness was now indeed the Holy Spirit . . . not that He received it on that day.
Here is where Jesus tells us how He will come to us as the Comforter (Holy Spirit)
John 14:16-18 (King James Version)
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
The word Comforter is parakletos which means advocate. (There is only one advocate for us with God . . . Jesus.) The Spirit of Truth IS Christ who the world did not know . . . but they did because He dwelled with them . . . and HE shall (will) be IN them. He will not leave them comfortless (orphanos = without a teacher). He will come to them.
I will let GOT's post stand in rebuttal of the rest of your theological dogma, Mike.
What difference does it make whether one believes in the trinity or not. Is it not sufficient to believe in God the Father, his Son, and have the Holy Spirit. If we have the Holy Spirit within, does this mean we are part of the trinity? Will the arguments go on for infinity?
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