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pcamps admitted he never actually believed the things you believe, so don't be surprised when he doesn't know what you are talking about.
That is not the truth, Finn . . . why are you twisting pcamps words to your deceptive ends? Is this more of the lying for God that seems to be so rampant among the fundies here? You do this a lot . . . grab some statement out of context and latch on to misrepresent it. Then you harp on it and start an argument about it to distract the thread . . . possibly to close it down. You have done that successfully with some of the best threads here. Is that your aim?
I am not here to argue, or to choose sides. There seems to be 2 main thoughts on this issue,with a few variations thrown in. If you have the time to read this post, I believe you may see the missing parts of both these issues. I learned all of this through the Word and in spending time with Him, with very little input from any organization or ideology. Please open your heart and see if this is not truth.
One is ET, Eternal torment, which is the group that feels that when we die we are put aside until the judgment, and then, if we don’t have Jesus as Savior, we end up in a place of fire and torment that will last throughout eternity.
The other group is UR, Universal Restoration, which is the group that believes that all will be restored in the future, and we will all be in Heaven with God. I began my faith journey belonging to the ET group, but I had questions. My biggest question was, “Is God a torturer? Would He send people with no availability of knowledge in Him to a place of eternal torment on the basis of ignorance?†Like the guy living in the far east, that lives a good life, respecting and loving his neighbors, basically doing little wrong, and if judged by the 10 Commandments, would be as good as any Christian, yet, because he failed to come to belief in Jesus, his sin, (which everyone has, even in small amounts), could not be wiped away. So he is sentenced to hell forever. (But this person has no ability to pay the debt! Is that fair of God?)
I came across UR, and many of its tenets were fascinating to me, and many were scripturally sound, and some not. The main one being the fact that Adam sinned, which is a debt,and the only way to fully pay that debt would be the death of a sin-free human,which did occur with the death of Jesus. It occurred to me, that this debt was paid in full, because surely Jesus’ blood was fully able to cover the whole debt, and I realized that it was the same as paying off any debt. Once it is paid in full, it is DONE. And these were Jesus’ words upon His death; IT IS FINISHED!
I also looked at the scriptures in Romans 5, where Paul describes and compares the act of Adam versus the act of Jesus. Even though the Old English doesn’t do a good job of conveying the direct comparison Paul was making, the act of Adam was fully cancelled out by the act of Jesus. The verses from Romans 5:12 through 5:19 are an obvious comparison between a debt being made and a debt being fully paid off, and in verse 19 Paul said, “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.†The word many has often come into question, but unless Paul was a madman, he was using them both in the same manner in the same sentence as a comparison. In this case many means all, because we know that all humans (except Jesus) became sinners. This is stated by Paul in verse 12. So now I know that the debt of Adam has been paid. But a question arises; “What about the sin that I commit often during my life?†I’m not perfect, and neither is anyone else, so if my sin from Adam has been cancelled, why do I still sin? I can’t say that I don’t sin, or I would also be a lunatic! This has led me to delve deeper still into the Bible.
I have always believed that the Bible is the Word of God, and if I can’t use it for truth, (taking into account discrepancies because of translation), then I have no way of answering these questions. Granted, the Spirit can speak to me, but I still need verification from a sure anchor, and the Word of God IS that anchor. Some of my questions have been thus:
1. Why do I sin?
2. Why can’t I stop sinning?
3.If I die in sin, what happens to me?
4.If an unsaved person dies, what happens to them?
5. If Jesus’ blood covers all sin, then we all go to paradise?
6. Is there a purging system set up by God to eliminate this sin that we obviously have.
7. If the saved are going directly to heaven to be with the Lord, then why does the scripture say in Matt. 16:27, For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
8. Why do the UR people say that there will be a time of restoration after death, when the scripture is silent on this specifically?
I can go on and on, and I know that many others have similar questions. So what could I do? Since Jesus IS the Word, I decided to go to Him! He spoke directly many times in scripture, so surely HE would have answers. Some of His statements caught my eye, and have shown me that the answer to these questions lie between the two positions of ET and UR.
One of the main salvation verses is John 3:16…For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,but have everlasting life. The word perish is a strong word! So does this verse mean that those that don’t believe in Him will perish? But Romans 5 says that the sin of Adam has been paid for! What’s up with that? Did Jesus everspeak using the perish word? Yes, He did! Matt. 5:29, And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. How about Matt 9:17, Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into newbottles, and both are preserved.
But it is apparent that these are examples of a duality; parts that can be eliminated or purged in order to preserve the rest. So this lead me to look at the makeup of the human. Are we made up ofdifferent parts? Not parts like legs, arms, eyes; but in other ways. The answer is yes!
Jesus said in Mark 14:38, Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak. Paul says in Gal. 5:17, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. He also further divides the human when he says: For the word of God is quick,and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. This started me to wonder that there may be a part of us that is to be judged, and another part of us that is free of sin and not under judgment, and John even states this in 1 John; in 1 John 1:8 he says, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Then in 3:9 he says, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. So here we see that we sin, yet we cannot sin!
So this HAS to mean that we are divided into separate parts! Paul further expresses this when in 1 Thess. 5:23, he prays for the whole salvation of those he wrote to: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. And back to 1 John 2:24-28, Let that therefore abide in you,which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in theFather. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
This section of 1 John tells us a great many things! First, we need to abide in Him. IF we do, then we are promised eternal life. Does this mean that if we don’t abide, that we will be thrown into hell, or the Lake of Fire? No! It means that we take the chance of being ashamed before Him at His coming.
But back to Jesus. What does He say? Matt 16:24-27, Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life(in Greek, soul) shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life (soul)for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
It becomes plain to me, that Jesus was telling us to give up OUR life…the life that we control…our soul life. The soul is the problem! And if we fail to give it up, we can lose it. It doesn’t mean that we will lose everything! It doesn’t say that! It can be compared to your computer crashing and you lose your files. YOUR person,YOUR things, the things that you held onto, are lost! They are the files, but you don't lose the computer. And this is what happens at the judgment!
The word hell is a very badly mistranslated word. In the time of the Bible, this word meant the place where the garbage was burned up. This IS the meaning of hell. The Emperor Justinian was the one that made a decree that hell be defined as a place of eternal punishment. In Jesus’ day, it meant the city dump! And our souls contain the garbage! Paul told us about this. In 1 Corinthians 3:11-17 he says: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay,stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it,because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy,which temple ye are.
So the wood, hay, and stubble are the things that WE want, apart from God. They get burned up. Simple! The rest will live through the fire. If you have the Spirit of God within you, you are part of the Temple of God. If YOU, (that is your soul), defiles that Temple, God will destroy YOU,(your soul).
Did Jesus ever speak of this? Yes! Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. In other words, God’s judgment is to throw the garbage of your soul into the fire to be burned. And where is this fire?
Daniel 7:9, 10 says: I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the purewool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Yes, this is a scene from the White Throne Judgment, and the fire from the Throne of God burns away all that is contrary to Him! This is why these verses…Nahum 1:6, Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him. Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: It now becomes evident, that the fire of God is eternal, and if you are in the presence of God, you will be in the purifying fire, yet it will not harm you, because the bad had been purged. This fire is obviously eternal emanating from the presence of God. Might I add that the Sea of Glass is probably a picture of this. It is actually the sea of fire that had burned up the sins of everyone. That’s why the saints are dancing upon it! Did you ever wonder why Jesus didn’t warn people about the fire of hell and an eternity to be spent there? If this were true, He would have been running around warning everyone He possibly could! But He didn’t. He was calm and peaceful.
Now, all of this sheds a different light on what salvation really is. Remember where it says that the sins of those living before the commandments were given, were not counted against them? So is it so far-fetched to realize that those without faith in Jesus are not condemned to a tortuous eternity?
Something else must be taking place. All throughout history, God has chosen people for certain things. Noah was chosen to build an ark. Abraham was chosen to show his faith. Ezekiel was chosen and he displayed imagery and symbolism of his people. The apostles were chosen to be the first to come to Jesus and then spread the Word. Judas was chosen to be against Jesus, and he lost at least a portion of his soul because of it. God allows us to go our own way, and at the same time He is teaching us the right way. Our will determines many things, but God gives us all we need for our eternal betterment. That’s what the Commandments are: They aren’t the rules of a strict punishing parent…they are the guidelines to a glorious life.They show us if we are on the correct path. They keep us safe if we abide by them. God created this world and the people that live in it. He wants to show us the safe way without controlling our every move. He knew Adam would sin. But He wants a human race that will love Him. A human race that will love Him with their own volition. He doesn’t want robots, and He doesn’t want to force them to love Him. It says that God is love, it doesn't say God is force!
Indeed, He could do all this, but it would be shallow and of little worth. He was willing to make a man, knowing that he would succumb to sin, yet He also knew that He had the answer for it. God is fully responsible for His creation, and also responsible for the vulnerability that he gave Adam. He showed His love for us, in that He died for this cause. He lowered Himself to a servant and died to pay for the debt to show us His love. That’s really powerful!
He came and rescued us from death…that is, separation from Him. Then He gave us the way to come fully back into full relationship with Him. This is one of the things that Jesus gave to us. He showed us the way. There has to be an order in the universe of God. There are those that have given all to be with Him. There are also those that have given nothing, and even hated Him. There are those that have done great things for others, and there are those that have spread much death and destruction. But in the end, He wants us all back, because we are all His. I believe that those that have given the most to be with Him will be those that are closest to Him throughout eternity. Our souls are not His, HE didn't place the files into them, we did. But He wants as much of our souls as He can get. This was the chance He took, yet He knew the outcome. Some come fully to Him, some come with loss. But He eventually will retain all of His creation minus those bad 'files' that are burned up, and He will have gained the respect, fear, and love of all creation.
Coming to Jesus opens the door to full restoration for a person. It DOES NOT save us from an eternity in a place of torment, because that's not the way it works...there is no permanent place of torture, there is only a permanent and eternal devouring fire from the Throne. The order of this has been given in scripture.
1 Corinthians15:23-26, But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. First came Jesus’ resurrection; then those that are His when He comes; then comes THE END, when all are judged and all is completed. The final enemy that is destroyed is death…and death is separation from God. No one will be separated from God,because separation from God will be destroyed! A word about the coming… It says “afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming.â€
We know the dead IN CHRIST rise first. This is ALL the people that died IN CHRIST. It includes ALL those, even the ones that looked forward to Jesus in OT Times, and had faith in this. But the key here are the words “IN CHRISTâ€. From the 1 John scriptures, it is apparent that these are those that abide IN HIM.
Jesus gave instructions on this in Matthew 16:24-27. Eternal life is a specific gift that dwells within a person. It only comes through being IN JESUS. Abiding in Him is another way of saying it. Many believers in Jesus don’t have eternal life within, because they don’t abide IN HIM. They are like the 5 foolish virgins that aren’t ready. I will give you the meaning of a verse that has confused many.
Do you wish to know who will be raptured at His Second Coming? Matthew 16:28 is Jesus’ answer to what happens when a person obeys the admonition of Matthew16:24-27. It has nothing to do with the Transfiguration on the Mount. Nor is it a confusing verse. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. When this is read in Greek, the meaning of “standing here†can also be “in this way standingâ€. This verse should actually be read: Verily I say unto you, There be some, in this way standing, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. In what way? The way that Jesus described in the prior verses! Jesus just spent the previous 4 verses telling the disciples what the criteria was for being ready for Him at His coming! It makes perfect sense! If you live your life in Jesus, in the way that you should,and you happen to be alive at His coming, then you will not taste of death at His coming, but you will be resurrected on the spot! And since you are "in Jesus", you will recognize Him and be ready for Him.
I didn't say they would be. Do you believe they will be?
I think sin is an earthly issue for humans. No one knows the nature of hell, other than it is eternal. IMO it is separation from God, a very lonely place, and the spirits in hell won't be doing much at all.
I think sin is an earthly issue for humans. No one knows the nature of hell, other than it is eternal. IMO it is separation from God, a very lonely place, and the spirits in hell won't be doing much at all.
But you do know that SIN cannot exist ANYWHERE at some point in the future, right? That means the nature behind sin will cease to exist also, you understand that correct?
But you do know that SIN cannot exist ANYWHERE at some point in the future, right? That means the nature behind sin will cease to exist also, you understand that correct?
I guess you are trying to say Satan, the father is sin, is annihilated. Is that your point?
The people that are resurrected and thrown into the lake of fire have a body.
The ones in hell have no physical body. But they have feelings. The absence from God`s presence is already torment. To confront darkness can be fearful, once my hair stood up. But in the name of Jesus Christ is victory.
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