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By the same token, I believe there are a lot of sincere, people who genuinely believe in UR and believe that a lot of the "all" and "temporary eternity" scriptures trump all Bible references to hell or condemnation. --- Honestly, I wish that I could find some basis in scripture to support the UR, 'no hell' belief ... and simply not worry about what happens to those who reject Jesus Christ; BUT, it simply isn't there!
I honestly would not have expected the bolded statement from you, jghorton. You never seemed to me to be someone who thought that a belief in Christ was only beneficial for the purpose of avoiding eternal hell. Are you saying that if there is no eternal hell, you would not still have the same passion and concern for people who reject the God you believe in?
Not what I was saying at all! - Thanks for asking. Christ said, "I have come that you may have life and have it more abundantly" ... (not 'to keep you from going to hell.") My passion is a desire for everyone to discover God's offer of and plan for rich, full lives, lived in relationship with the living God. I want everyone to enter into God's Kingdom now and live victorious lives ... instead of wandering in the darkness and convolution of this world. It grieves my Spirit and worries me, when people are blinded to the things of God.
What Pleroo and I and others are trying to tell you, jghorton is that we too are concerned . . . but not for the same reasons. We know that an eternal hell is simply not something our loving God would EVER create or use. There WILL be reaping of whatever we sow . . . but NEVER more than we sow and it will be correctional . . . not punitive. It isn't the rejection of Jesus Christ and the things YOU believe ABOUT Him that are important to our fate. It is following His instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. That is how we are sanctified under His love and perfect grace . . . to cover our imperfections that we repent of. IF we fail in that . . . our imperfections will be refined out as dross in the consuming fire of God's pure love after we die.
Except for those of Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6; 10 v 26, ALL who are dead are freed or acquitted from sin according to Romans 6 v 7
That does Not mean the dead are now innocent [ John 3 v 13; Acts 24 v 15 ], but as a judge can pardon a person so the crime charges do not stick, Jesus as Judge can pardon a person so the sin charges do not stick.
Those executed by the words from Jesus' mouth [ Isaiah 11 vs 3,4; Rev. 19 vs 11,15 ] will not be resurrected after they die.
They are classed or judged as wicked one who will be destroyed forever- Psalm 92 v 7; 2nd Peter 3 vs 7,9
Just as the Son of Man came,.....and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for MANY.- Matthew 20 v 28; Mark 10 v 45; Hebrews 9 v 28 A
Except for those of Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6; 10 v 26, ALL who are dead are freed or acquitted from sin according to Romans 6 v 7
That does Not mean the dead are now innocent [ John 3 v 13; Acts 24 v 15 ], but as a judge can pardon a person so the crime charges do not stick, Jesus as Judge can pardon a person so the sin charges do not stick.
Those executed by the words from Jesus' mouth [ Isaiah 11 vs 3,4; Rev. 19 vs 11,15 ] will not be resurrected after they die.
They are classed or judged as wicked one who will be destroyed forever- Psalm 92 v 7; 2nd Peter 3 vs 7,9
Just as the Son of Man came,.....and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for MANY.- Matthew 20 v 28; Mark 10 v 45; Hebrews 9 v 28 B
As long as you continue to think that you are either one thing or the other . . . wicked or free from sin (or repentant) . . . you will not understand yourself, your fate or our loving God. We are ALL both, period. If we repent we are freed from those errors (un-love or missing the mark). IF we do not . . . they will be refined out as dross after our death.
Except for those of Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6; 10 v 26, ALL who are dead are freed or acquitted from sin according to Romans 6 v 7
That does Not mean the dead are now innocent [ John 3 v 13; Acts 24 v 15 ], but as a judge can pardon a person so the crime charges do not stick, Jesus as Judge can pardon a person so the sin charges do not stick.
Those executed by the words from Jesus' mouth [ Isaiah 11 vs 3,4; Rev. 19 vs 11,15 ] will not be resurrected after they die.
They are classed or judged as wicked one who will be destroyed forever- Psalm 92 v 7; 2nd Peter 3 vs 7,9
Just as the Son of Man came,.....and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for MANY.- Matthew 20 v 28; Mark 10 v 45; Hebrews 9 v 28 A
At the coming ' time of separation ' [ Matthew 25 vs 31,32;46 ] those whom Jesus judges as haughty goats will have everlasting punishment [ verse 46 ] punished with everlasting destruction - 2nd Thess. 1 v 9.
They are also greedy ones who would bring ruin to earth [ ruin literally and morally ], but they will be destroyed before they can do that.- Rev. 11 v 18 B; 2nd Timothy 3 vs 1-5,13
Destroyed forever [ Psalm 92 v 7 ] as in annihilated forever. Gone forever- Jeremiah 25 vs 31-33
No hope of any resurrection either to heaven or resurrected back to physical life on earth.- Acts 24 v 15
As long as you continue to think that you are either one thing or the other . . . wicked or free from sin (or repentant) . . . you will not understand yourself, your fate or our loving God. We are ALL both, period. If we repent we are freed from those errors (un-love or missing the mark). IF we do not . . . they will be refined out as dross after our death.
What does Romans 6 v 7 say about those who have died ?_____
After death the only hope is: resurrection.
Please notice at Acts 24 v 15 there are only two classes that are resurrected. Just and unjust or righteous and unrighteous
There is No class or No category for the wicked ones because they are executed by the words from Jesus' mouth.
- Isaiah 11 vs 3,4.
Such wicked ones do not ever repent, but classed as ungodly- 2nd Peter 3 v 7- and will perish [ be destroyed ] verse 9
We are part of that creation. Therefore we were made subject to vanity. Notice what your saying and what it says. It says NOT WILLINGLY but it was subjected to vanity BY God (the same who gives it hope).
Romans 8:20 is not a stand alone verse for there is a distinction that is made between the creation and the believer along with other verses found through out scriptures.
Romans 8:20-24
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
Two separate objects .... one is waiting for the other to be revealed
(1) For the creation
(2) waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
God cursed the balance of creation because of mankind's sin (Genesis 3:17 ) ... and it is of this curse the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice .
At the coming ' time of separation ' [ Matthew 25 vs 31,32;46 ] those whom Jesus judges as haughty goats will have everlasting punishment [ verse 46 ] punished with everlasting destruction - 2nd Thess. 1 v 9.
They are also greedy ones who would bring ruin to earth [ ruin literally and morally ], but they will be destroyed before they can do that.- Rev. 11 v 18 B; 2nd Timothy 3 vs 1-5,13
Destroyed forever [ Psalm 92 v 7 ] as in annihilated forever. Gone forever- Jeremiah 25 vs 31-33
No hope of any resurrection either to heaven or resurrected back to physical life on earth.- Acts 24 v 15
But what about Moses? He wanted to be blotted out of the book of life if God woudln't TAKE Away the sins of the people.
Exo_32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Romans 8:20 is not a stand alone verse for there is a distinction that is made between the creation and the believer along with other verses found through out scriptures.
Romans 8:20-24
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
Two separate objects .... one is waiting for the other to be revealed
(1) For the creation
(2) waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
God cursed the balance of creation because of mankind's sin (Genesis 3:17 ) ... and it is of this curse the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice .
So what about eradication of sin? Why do you believe that Jesus will fail to eradicate sin?
Are you being serious ?. The very thing you believe you are saved from is not stated so, yet throughout scripture there's references to being saved from missing the mark and the effects from it......... The opposite of enjoying life abundantly......... To find out what that is, read Genesis 3( where there is no mention of eternal hell)
Hell is not eternal, the lake of fire is. Salvation or being saved has many meanings in the bible. One thing I know that the one that goes to hell after death is lost for destruction, no second chance. If you do not believe it, that is your faith, I am not your judge. If eternal hell is not mentioned in Gen 3, so what? Does it say anywhere in the bible that there is no eternal hell? If an Atheist does not believe in God he has his reasons and no believer can proof to him with any doubt that there is a god. The same is with you, you do not believe there is a place in the midst of the earth called hell, so I cannot proof to you that there is, but you cannot proof to me, that there is not. I have the personal revelation that there is a literal hell and there are others that can confirm it through their testimony and the faith of Christianity throughout history from the beginning believed it, I think it is apostolic, but I never looked for it. For me the case is settled, if in 4 years no one could convince you otherwise, I certainly cannot either. So have your abundant life, I am not in condemnation nor in depression, nor do I go there because I believe there is one. I am saved through the finished work of Jesus Christ at the cross, who died for my sins and I tell others. Jesus did not save me from hell, He rescued me once, but if I live my life in sin to death without repentance I surely go to hell, this is what I believe, if I choose to, God cannot save me from hell, you say He can, but you are in error, because God acts according to His word.
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