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that for you and other people who believe as you do (that Jesus died on a cross as a sacrifice to appease the wrath of God) you are
1. forgiven for your sin and saved from what you think is the ultimate consequence of sin -- eternal hell -- and
2. after death, you will all be transformed and will no longer sin, and
that those who do not believe as you do will never be forgiven and will never be transformed but will remain wicked and unrepentant forever, and therefore tormented forever.
Remember, I believed what you believed once, too, so this is not news to me.
That is why I found it so shocking that you seemed to be claiming that people were not going to be saved from sin itself, but only from hell. It wasn't me trying to change any focus, it was me trying to figure out why you seemed to be contradicting yourself and what I know to be your beliefs.
Pleroo,
Exactly where did I convey "that people were not going to be saved from sin itself, but only from hell."?
At this point, that is all that I'm wiling to explore any further in so that it can be re-stated.
Pleroo,
Exactly where did I convey "that people were not going to be saved from sin itself, but only from hell."?
At this point, that is all that I'm wiling to explore any further in so that it can be re-stated.
Twin, it was a misunderstanding and you cleared it up. No worries.
Like I said, I know what you meant now --
Not that YOU will not be saved from sin itself, but that you take issue with the idea that anyone like myself -- who doesn't believe the "right things" -- will be saved from sin.
Twin, it was a misunderstanding and you cleared it up. No worries.
Like I said, I know what you meant now --
Not that YOU will not be saved from sin itself, but that you take issue with the idea that anyone like myself -- who doesn't believe the "right things" -- will be saved from sin.
That is more confusing ....
"that anyone like myself -- who doesn't believe the "right things" -- will be saved from sin"
I do not recall any such conclusion.
To me when you stated:
1. forgiven for your sin and saved from what you think is the ultimate consequence of sin -- eternal hell -- and
2. after death, you will all be transformed and will no longer sin, and
that those who do not believe as you do will never be forgiven and will never be transformed but will remain wicked and unrepentant forever, and therefore tormented forever.
That is not what Jesus ever taught, that "who doesn't believe the "right things" -- will be saved from sin"
The sin of unbelief is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which that sin is the act of a person "who doesn't believe the "right things" "
Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Mark 3:29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
You saying all that universalists talk about is hell, is so unbelievably astounding it is not funny. You are on every thread that opposes being saved is from eternal hell,which obviously if there is no eternal hell it leaves only 2 other options,annihilation or all are saved from sin, you are defending the belief that it being saved from eternal hell scriptural, you have admitted this when asked why are you on the threads about eternal hell.
What can I say.... You are the one talking about, and complaining that I am NOT talking about it....
Let me ask you this: Since you admit that I have answered it in other threads, then why are you here pretending that I have not answered it? Do you see how dishonest that is? Why are you demanding answers to questions you admit have already been answered?
Every coin has two sides. Jesus summarized both sides of the coin in one verse: John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
You were offended when I talked about eternal life.
What is the alternative to having eternal life? Jesus says those who do not have life will go away to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46). I am not making this up. This is what Jesus taught, and apparently you can't get it out of your head. You should be asking yourself why.
"that anyone like myself -- who doesn't believe the "right things" -- will be saved from sin"
I do not recall any such conclusion.
I said that you take issue with the idea, not that you agree with it.
Quote:
To me when you stated:
1. forgiven for your sin and saved from what you think is the ultimate consequence of sin -- eternal hell -- and
2. after death, you will all be transformed and will no longer sin, and
that those who do not believe as you do will never be forgiven and will never be transformed but will remain wicked and unrepentant forever, and therefore tormented forever.
That is not what Jesus ever taught, that "who doesn't believe the "right things" -- will be saved from sin"
The sin of unbelief is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which that sin is the act of a person "who doesn't believe the "right things" "
Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Mark 3:29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
Ah, Twin ... I'm almost afraid to try to clear this up, because it seems the more you and I try to communicate the more muddied it becomes. But here goes...
You believe you are being saved from hell AND from sin because you believe/trust that Jesus died as a sacrifice to appease God's wrath for your sins.
You also assert that unless people believe as you do, they will not be saved from hell OR their sin.
So, when I said, "God saves us from our sin" in that original post, you took issue with that because I said "US ... OUR" rather than "you ... your". You believe God is saving you from your sin, but not that God is saving me from mine.
(At first, two or three posts back, I misunderstood and I thought you were saying that God doesn't save you from sin, only from hell. Then I realized my mistake.)
Which the disciples forgot to mention without fail every single time they announced the good news in the Acts of the Apostles. Can you tell me why that is, and do you not find that extremely odd ?.
Please don't reply with a bunch of bulleted bible verses of eternal damnation, just tell my why you think they never mentioned it is eternal hell that we are saved from.
Here again is another example of how to answer a person who is intellectually dishonest when previously he declares:
Originally Posted by pcamps Everything on this forum for me, is about getting all whose consciences bear witness that eternal torment is unjust.
Jesus often said that people in his day who had no intentions of listening to him but were interested in justifying their accusations by using "trap questions" responded with by saying:
Matthew 23:33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"
When Jesus spoke Matthew 23:33, anyone who thinks of themselves as intellectually honest, would realize that since Jesus also spoke of hell being "eternal" ... that he not need to say it every single time to satisfy that wanton skeptic accuser that permeates in Universalism, the typical universalist and the accuser of God being unjust.
So it's not surprising that the question being asked purposefully limits to Acts of the Apostles ... when the Apostles did address it:
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John (in three separate letters)
Peter
Paul (in letters to Christian Churches founded by him)
As can be found (paraphrased by me) in the Concordia Self- Study Bible as to the purpose of Acts:
-------------------------------------
Acts was written by Luke (though not by name) as was the ordinary procedure for a historian at the time to begin a second volume summarizing the first edition.
Luke's main purpose for writing Acts appears to be:
To present a history as a historical account of Christian origins
To give a defense of Christianity with the underlying purpose of people's conversion
To provide a guide Since Luke had no way of knowing how long the church would remain on earth, but as long as it pursues it course, the Book of Acts will be one of the major guides.
To depict the triumph of Christianity in the face of bitter persecution by the establishing of local churches from Jerusalem to Rome, shows that Christianity was not a mere work human doctrines but that it (Christianity) was the doctrines established by God.
Of course the questioner has been more than once explained the purpose of the writing of Acts, but as we see, it's not that he's interested in theological sound explanations but rather to maintain the accusation of God being unjust.
To which only such efforts by accusers will lead to one result:
"only a fearfulexpectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
What can I say.... You are the one talking about, and complaining that I am NOT talking about it....
Let me ask you this: Since you admit that I have answered it in other threads, then why are you here pretending that I have not answered it? Do you see how dishonest that is? Why are you demanding answers to questions you admit have already been answered?
Every coin has two sides. Jesus summarized both sides of the coin in one verse: John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
You were offended when I talked about eternal life.
What is the alternative to having eternal life? Jesus says those who do not have life will go away to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46). I am not making this up. This is what Jesus taught, and apparently you can't get it out of your head. You should be asking yourself why.
Laugh my English arse off. It took me going to another thread to show you what you won't admit on this thread. Well at least we will never hear you say on here(city data) that we are saved from eternal hell again, that is at least one less fundamentalist sharing another gospel on here.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-04-2014 at 12:27 PM..
I said that you take issue with the idea, not that you agree with it.
Ah, Twin ... I'm almost afraid to try to clear this up, because it seems the more you and I try to communicate the more muddied it becomes. But here goes...
You believe you are being saved from hell AND from sin because you believe/trust that Jesus died as a sacrifice to appease God's wrath for your sins.
You also assert that unless people believe as you do, they will not be saved from hell OR their sin.
So, when I said, "God saves us from our sin" in that original post, you took issue with that because I said "US ... OUR" rather than "you ... your". You believe God is saving you from your sin, but not that God is saving me from mine.
(At first, two or three posts back, I misunderstood and I thought you were saying that God doesn't save you from sin, only from hell. Then I realized my mistake.)
Make sense? *fingers crossed*
Pleroo,
Thanks for clarifying.
I hope that you come across somebody that can meet with you (face to face) that knows from where I'm coming from, to better explain what I can not.
Such a person that I'm thinking of would be a pastor from the WELS \ ELS \ LCMS in your area.
Laugh my English arse off. It took me going to another thread to show you what you won't admit on this thread. Well at least we will never hear you say on here(city data) that we are saved from eternal hell again, that is at least one less fundamentalist sharing another gospel on here.
I am glad you can laugh after accidentally exposing your own false claims. I will continue to speak whatever I feel it appropriate at any given time. At this time I felt it was appropriate to expose you, and so I did. Well, actually you ended up exposing yourself, but same diff.
No problem. Sorry for the misunderstanding to begin with.
Quote:
I hope that you come across somebody that can meet with you (face to face) that knows from where I'm coming from, to better explain what I can not.
Such a person that I'm thinking of would be a pastor from the WELS \ ELS \ LCMS in your area.
Twin, I'm surrounded by such people on a regular basis. Not to mention I was LC-MS for 40+ years.
I know where you're coming from (where I came from) but I've left that behind and will not return to it.
I see the massive failure of the doctrine of ET on all levels. It cannot be reconciled with the God who is love, and who will have all to be saved (from their sin ).
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