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I don't understand why you think that. There is no rule that says that the amount of joy that can be experienced by some is directly equivalent to the amount of anguish experienced by others. A sort of yingyang philosophy? That can't be what you mean, but it sounds like it.
No one is saying anything about buying their way into or out of anyplace, Twin.
It's not about a place. It's about a state of being. The reign of heaven is about God's nature becoming our nature; it's about Christ being raised in us and overcoming whatever is in us that is out of harmony with God's nature. It doesn't happen all at once. It takes time. And physical death doesn't stop that process.
We've discussed this before. The "wicked" is the Old Man ... we've all got one, and it must be overcome by the New Man, Christ in us. So, the assurance that the wickedness which is in us will be separated from the righteousness of Christ in us, and will be cast out and destroyed, is good news for us all.
I understand that you don't believe that this is what God intends for us ... but it is not intellectually dishonest to believe it.
Amen! Amen! Amen!!! If only people would understand this as well as you do, Pleroo! Our carnal focus on this physical world and materiality seems to pose too great a stumbling block for so many. The bold should be made a sticky at the top of the Christianity forum!!! There is so much unnecessary division and dissension based on a failure to understand this. Still can't rep you, Pleroo.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 01-03-2014 at 02:21 PM..
The problem with the Eternal Torment Crowd really comes down to the most fundamental piece. They believe they chose Christ and not the other way around.
By using that as their baseboard they can then claim that others that didn't give "permission" to God are therefore worthy of eternal torment.
Jesus said the following:
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
They also forget this:
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Now if you ask the wicked one or the atheist if they ever felt God's love and they say "no", then how can anyone expect them to love God.
There is no need for a believer to fear any retribution from God, so your assumption is false.
What about the believer who rejects the belief of eternal torment, does he have anything to fear, and will there be any retribution for him ?. I know without doubt that 1 poster on this thread who will definitely say yes to this .
I suppose you cannot say yes, because it proves my point, siding with what your conscience bears witness to, is to big a risk to take because of fear of retribution for denying what you think the bible teaches about eternal hell. You have been forced into believing it by the devil and you don't know it. If you don't believe it you will suffer the judgement of God, is what the devil is holding you captive with.
I don't understand why you think that. There is no rule that says that the amount of joy that can be experienced by some is directly equivalent to the amount of anguish experienced by others. A sort of yingyang philosophy? That can't be what you mean, but it sounds like it.
No one is saying anything about buying their way into or out of anyplace, Twin. It's not about a place. It's about a state of being. The reign of heaven is about God's nature becoming our nature; it's about Christ being raised in us and overcoming whatever is in us that is out of harmony with God's nature. It doesn't happen all at once. It takes time. And physical death doesn't stop that process.
We've discussed this before. The "wicked" is the Old Man ... we've all got one, and it must be overcome by the New Man, Christ in us. So, the assurance that the wickedness which is in us will be separated from the righteousness of Christ in us, and will be cast out and destroyed, is good news for us all.
I understand that you don't believe that this is what God intends for us ... but it is not intellectually dishonest to believe it.
I did not say anything about hatred. My goal was to expose a false teaching, and that is what I did.
1 John 4:1 ESV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
In order to follow this instruction it is necessary to know the Spirit of God. Is it the Spirit described as YHWH (Jehovah) in the OT or is it the Spirit revealed by Christ in the NT? Which Spirit are you testing with, Finn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Ephesians 5:11 ESV Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
I notice something like this is always associated with criticisms of those who disagree with fundies, Finn. Since none of us are doing any such things . . . no more than I assume you are . . . Why do you always point them out as if we are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
2 Timothy 4:3-4 ESV For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
I find this citation from a fundy particularly ironic. Who is wandering off into myths or fables . . . the 100% Bible Believers or the UR's?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ESV For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
This seems to be something you would want to pay particular attention to . . . and try to be certain that you are not among them, Finn. I am certain I am not! I witness to my understanding and make no claim to apostleship, teaching or authority of any kind. I simply follow Christ's instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't.
Twinspin, I already explained. URs don't believe in torment they way you do. It is not the same question when given to us. My answer is that that God NEVER torments anyone in the manner that Fudnamentalists believe in Torment. So that is 0 years raised to the infinite power.
You have to remember the UR God is LOVE and says to LOVE your enemies.
well .... Jesus doesn't teach the UR's means of grace that affects LOVE.
So Jesus' answer is that God NEVER allows the wicked into heaven in the manner Universalists believe in LOVE does.
So your original question was at best disingenuous or as I suspected what UR theology is which is babble of the intellectually dishonest.
Last edited by twin.spin; 01-03-2014 at 03:19 PM..
What about the believer who rejects the belief of eternal torment, does he have anything to fear, and will there be any retribution for him ?. I know without doubt that 1 poster on this thread who will definitely say yes to this.
It is very simple: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.
That's it. A person could be believer and never heard about hell. A newly saved person who has not yet heard about what Jesus taught other than that whoever believes in Him is saved, would be saved without ever heard of hell. If such person later learns about the teachings of Christ, and declares he rejects it, then is he/she a believer? God will judge his/her heart.
In the real world, I don't know anyone who claims to be a believer while rejecting what Jesus taught. What would such person be a believer in, if he/she doesn't believe in Jesus?
Universalists are the only people I have ever known who talk about hell, and nothing else. Everything to you is about hell, and such obsession should make you wonder why that is. To me it is about LIFE, not hell.
It is very simple: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.
That's it. A person could be believer and never heard about hell. A newly saved person who has not yet heard about what Jesus taught other than that whoever believes in Him is saved, would be saved without ever heard of hell. If such person later learns about the teachings of Christ, and declares he rejects it, then is he/she a believer? God will judge his/her heart.
In the real world, I don't know anyone who claims to be a believer while rejecting what Jesus taught. What would such person be a believer in, if he/she doesn't believe in Jesus?
Universalists are the only people I have ever known who talk about hell, and nothing else. Everything to you is about hell, and such obsession should make you wonder why that is. To me it is about LIFE, not hell.
God says why they talk about ...." a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."The only way Universalists can remove that fact is to down play to such intellectually dishonest levels.
well .... Jesus doesn't teach in the UR's means of grace that affects LOVE.
So Jesus' answer is that God NEVER allows the wicked into heaven in the manner Universalists believe in LOVE does.
So your original quest was at best disingenuous or as I suspected what UR theology is which is babble of the intellectually dishonest.
Maybe that is the problem here Twin.spin. Maybe you believe that universalists are teaching that wicked get to go into heaven. That is NOT the case. We should at least agree on that part. What we do teach (and listen closely) is that God will UTTERLY DESTROY the wickedness from us. He will completely 100% remove it from us.
So now that I have shown you that any argument about Universalists believing that the wicked will get into heaven is a FALLACY. We (at least many I see here) do not teach that and nobody should.
Maybe that is the problem here Twin.spin. Maybe you believe that universalists are teaching that wicked get to go into heaven. That is NOT the case. We should at least agree on that part. What we do teach (and listen closely) is that God will UTTERLY DESTROY the wickedness from us. He will completely 100% remove it from us.
So now that I have shown you that any argument about Universalists believing that the wicked will get into heaven is a FALLACY. We (at least many I see here) do not teach that and nobody should.
I know perfectly well what Universalists DO teach and it's intellectually dishonest to say that God will UTTERLY DESTROY the wickedness from us.
Scriptures teach that Jesus NEVER says such thing ........ unless you fornicate that God is Just about the wicked being judged as the wicked people they are.
Which btw ... is what the universalists replied to Jesus:
" 'We are not illegitimate children,' they protested" John 8:41
You can protest or high five each other all you want .... you've lost the argument according to Jesus.
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