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What I mean is that it's intellectually dishonest to maintain any concept of a one sided "eternal\forever" (for ease of conversation ...please) that only applies to heaven's bliss but not hell's anguish.
I don't understand why you think that. There is no rule that says that the amount of joy that can be experienced by some is directly equivalent to the amount of anguish experienced by others. A sort of yingyang philosophy? That can't be what you mean, but it sounds like it.
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It's intellectually dishonest to use Mat 5:26, Luke 12:59 literally (as regarding paying whatever he thinks that maybe) as trettep does, yet then conveniently ignore \ reject:
a] since one can't buy their way into heaven because no amount is satisfactorily
yet insist that one can buy their way out of hell on a different principle
b] Luke 16:26 as not literal regarding the ability to crossover from one place to another
' a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
No one is saying anything about buying their way into or out of anyplace, Twin. It's not about a place. It's about a state of being. The reign of heaven is about God's nature becoming our nature; it's about Christ being raised in us and overcoming whatever is in us that is out of harmony with God's nature. It doesn't happen all at once. It takes time. And physical death doesn't stop that process.
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It's intellectually dishonest to say their are no wicked people \ judgment for a refining process when Jesus says:
The angelswill come and separate the wicked from the righteous[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Angels no longer have an option to do anything on their own free will ...
the wicked are separated from the righteous per God's will
the wicked are judged and thrown into hell by the angels per God's will
We've discussed this before. The "wicked" is the Old Man ... we've all got one, and it must be overcome by the New Man, Christ in us. So, the assurance that the wickedness which is in us will be separated from the righteousness of Christ in us, and will be cast out and destroyed, is good news for us all.
I understand that you don't believe that this is what God intends for us ... but it is not intellectually dishonest to believe it.
Anyone who is spiritually minded(thinks like God), will see by the scriptures below that he accomplishes his desire.
My thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
1As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Jesus Christ is the word that came out of the mouth of God(the mind of God).
The purpose that Jesus came was that we might have life and life mote abundantly.
Those who rely on their own understanding see that purpose partially accomplished because they look with their own eyes rather than by the mind of God, those who do see it, know no matter how contrary it may look, know that God calls the things that are not as though they were, so to them it is considered done, how it done, is in God's hand and time, not the three score and ten years that the fundamentalists believe God has to do it.
At this point, I'd guess it's clear, to any unbiased bystander, who answered what and who is deflecting and the judgment should be left to them. Arguing back and forth about that seems pointless and a good way to get the thread closed down (which perhaps some here desire to see happen). Seems like a good idea to let it go and focus on debating more important things.
But, that's just my opinion.
I think that happens on this forum where the ET crowd come into a UR thread and wants to stir up contention and get the thread closed down.
Just want to add, that there is a difference between debate and contention. One can be logical whereas the other is filled will irrational and illogical discussion.
I think that happens on this forum where the ET crowd come into a UR thread and wants to stir up contention and get the thread closed down.
Just want to add, that there is a difference between debate and contention. One can be logical whereas the other is filled will irrational and illogical discussion.
So your motivation from the heart was hatred for UR people or the message of UR?
I did not say anything about hatred. My goal was to expose a false teaching, and that is what I did.
1 John 4:1 ESV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Ephesians 5:11 ESV Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 ESV For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ESV For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
I am sorry the truth makes you uncomfortable, but maybe it is the beginning of your "road to recovery".
Finn_Jarber, if you could show me the ET was true, I would drop Universalism for it. You see the Truth to me is not worth holding unto a lie. If you can show me that ET is true with FACTS and EVIDENCE and logical and rational and reasoned scrutiny, I will embrace ET with open arms and Praise God of Heaven for the knowledge of it.
I don't get the feeling in this thread that is what your trying to do though. I don't see statements like the one you made here as trying to accomplish anything outwardly beneficial to others at all. I would suggest that put forward items of discussion for which you believe lend weight to Eternal Torment and see if it can withstand careful analysis.
I did not say anything about hatred. My goal was to expose a false teaching, and that is what I did.
1 John 4:1 ESV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Ephesians 5:11 ESV Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 ESV For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 ESV For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Well, I'm glad see you don't acknowledge a hatred for universalism or us universalists.
Finn_Jarber, if you could show me the ET was true, I would drop Universalism for it. You see the Truth to me is not worth holding unto a lie. If you can show me that ET is true with FACTS and EVIDENCE and logical and rational and reasoned scrutiny, I will embrace ET with open arms and Praise God of Heaven for the knowledge of it.
I don't get the feeling in this thread that is what your trying to do though. I don't see statements like the one you made here as trying to accomplish anything outwardly beneficial to others at all. I would suggest that put forward items of discussion for which you believe lend weight to Eternal Torment and see if it can withstand careful analysis.
I think exposing false teaching is very beneficial to others. I am not here to convince you of anything, because over the years the truth has been shown over and over with overwhelming evidence, and you reject it every time. I post for the benefit of those who come here to read and to seek the truth.
I think exposing false teaching is very beneficial to others. I am not here to convince you of anything, because over the years the truth has been shown over and over with overwhelming evidence, and you reject it every time. I post for the benefit of those who come here to read and to seek the truth.
I agree that exposing a false teaching is very beneficial but just telling someone a teaching is false is very unbeneficial.
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