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18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
The above shows the origin of the catholic Church and why the Church has authority.
Julian, you know I like you and most of the other Catholics on this forum and don't want to get into an argument with you. While I do believe that Jesus Christ organized His Church and gave Peter the keys of authority to oversee it, I do not believe that the authority Peter held was passed down to Linus, nor do I believe the Bishop of Rome was ever intended to have supremacy over any of the other bishops. Furthermore, I don't believe that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" means what you obviously think it means.
I dont think you should bash a Catholic as a person, but anything that goes against the bible needs to be addressed if it does against scripture. Life is not about being a Christian or believing in and following any creeds, it is about believing Jesus died for your sins, repenting and trying to live your life like he did and how he commanded us to. If someone or something goes against what the bible teaches, it needs to be pointed out and corrected in Love, without name calling, or condemning someone to hell, or calling it the Beast/Anti-Christ worship.
Does the bible command us to have a Pope?
Does the bible speak against graven images?
Does the bible speak against idolatry and bowing to statues?
Doesnt the bible say only God(YHWH) can forgive sins?
Doesnt the bible say to only pray to the Father, NOT Mary?
Does the bible speak against substituting what God commands and replacing it with human traditions?
Again this is not a Catholic basing, but to really question is Catholicism (mainly RCC) following and teaching what the bible commands or making up its own rules.
Oh yes it is. But I can take it. Bless your heart.
Oh yes it is. But I can take it. Bless your heart.
SO when following what the bible commands is brought up, it is Catholic bashing? Please show where in scripture we are to do these things.
1 Does the bible command us to have a Pope?
2 Does the bible speak against graven images?
3 Does the bible speak against idolatry and bowing to statues?
4 Doesnt the bible say only God(YHWH) can forgive sins?
5 Doesnt the bible say to only pray to the Father, NOT Mary?
6 Does the bible speak against substituting what God commands and replacing it with human traditions?
Answers
1 No
2 Yes. The blonde haired , blue eyed white Jesus that is everywhere, yet we have no clue what he really looks like other that this European version that has floated around for centuries.
3 Yes. Staues of Jesus and Mary and some even pray to these statues and bow down to them as well.
4 Yes, along with Jesus
5 Yes. We send our prayers through our high priest Jesus, not MARY
6 Pretty much every St Whatever holiday along with substituting Passover with Easter, and Halloween etc. Every effort will be made to justify and observe these days and all effort to denounce the Holy Days of God.
I wont even get into the many Catholic symbols that are carbon copies of idol Sun God worship. It may seem like bashing to you, but if it troubles your heart that much, please read the scripture and see what God commands for you as a believer vs what a doctrine is teaching you. You can point of errors in Love and not be bashing. There have been many Messianic that pointed out some of errors in mainstream Christianity that caused me to examine if it were true. I thought it was Christian bashing, but I went and studied for my self like scriptures tells us to and saw some things they were right on and some thing there were stretching.
Since you consider the bible to be imperfect and have errors, why would we trust Matthew 16?
Vizio:
That is an excellent observation. As far as I an tell this is symbolic and applies to mankind. As long as you are a baptized christian your church was also founded by Jesus. No religion is better or worse than others. The catholic Church is older so it seized the moment, that is all.
When Peter was martyred in Rome they remembered where his so-called tomb was and built Saint Peters over the tomb. They took the biblical passage and developed the papacy. It is what it is Vizio.
Peter was no Pope as the concept of pope did not exist. In fact, the Jewish folks did not even have the concept of bishop down. In any event Peter was considered the leader of the apostles and the Chrcu was built over his tomb.
Whether the Bible is in error or not regarding this point is moot. The doctrine was born from Matthew 16:18-19.
Julian, you know I like you and most of the other Catholics on this forum and don't want to get into an argument with you. While I do believe that Jesus Christ organized His Church and gave Peter the keys of authority to oversee it, I do not believe that the authority Peter held was passed down to Linus, nor do I believe the Bishop of Rome was ever intended to have supremacy over any of the other bishops. Furthermore, I don't believe that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" means what you obviously think it means.
Then I wonder why Peter appeared to Joseph Smith to give him legit apostolic succession.
And you are correct! The whole thing grew out of Matthew 16:18-19 and the fact that Peter was martyred in Rome. And folks remembered where Peter was buried and they built Saint Peters over the tomb of Peter.
How much time Peter spent in Rome is not important. What really matters is Matthew 16:18-19.
Peter ordained many others, but we will never know. What really matters is the concept of apostolic succession and Peter ordained many others that could have ordained Linus. In reality there was no formality to these events.
Those people were pagans. Catholics are not pagans and hence it does not apply.
Quote:
3 Does the bible speak against idolatry and bowing to statues?
The figure and shapes means nothing. Praying to a crucifix is praying to God. As I said Christianity cannot be a pagan religion despite the presence of images and statues in the church.
Quote:
5 Doesnt the bible say to only pray to the Father, NOT Mary?
A prayer to the Mother of God is a prayer to God. God hears ALL prayers and is not petty or jealous of his mother.
Quote:
6 Does the bible speak against substituting what God commands and replacing it with human traditions?
2 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
I dont think you should bash a Catholic as a person, but anything that goes against the bible needs to be addressed if it does against scripture. Life is not about being a Christian or believing in and following any creeds, it is about believing Jesus died for your sins, repenting and trying to live your life like he did and how he commanded us to. If someone or something goes against what the bible teaches, it needs to be pointed out and corrected in Love, without name calling, or condemning someone to hell, or calling it the Beast/Anti-Christ worship.
Does the bible command us to have a Pope?
Does the bible speak against graven images?
Does the bible speak against idolatry and bowing to statues?
Doesnt the bible say only God(YHWH) can forgive sins?
Doesnt the bible say to only pray to the Father, NOT Mary?
Does the bible speak against substituting what God commands and replacing it with human traditions?
Again this is not a Catholic basing, but to really question is Catholicism (mainly RCC) following and teaching what the bible commands or making up its own rules.
A stinky pile of manure wrapped up in pretty paper is still a stinky pile of manure, and yes, you are Catholic bashing no matter how you try to pretend that you're not.
When you decide that your version of religion is "right" and somebody else's is "wrong", that's "bashing".
Those people were pagans. Catholics are not pagans and hence it does not apply.
The figure and shapes means nothing. Praying to a crucifix is praying to God. As I said Christianity cannot be a pagan religion despite the presence of images and statues in the church.
A prayer to the Mother of God is a prayer to God. God hears ALL prayers and is not petty or jealous of his mother.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Your bible knowledge is very weak.
And your butchering and taking scripture out of context is very strong.
Lets start with the pope issue:
The Bible specifically names several offices in the church and describes the work and qualifications of those who hold that office. Office Named Qualifications Work Apostles Eph. 4:11; Matt. 10:2-4;
Luke 6:13-16 Acts 1:21-26;
2 Cor. 12:11,12 Eph. 3:3-5;
Acts 10:39-41 Elders or Bishops Phil. 1:1; Acts 14:23;
Eph. 4:11 1 Tim. 3:1-7;
Titus 1:5-9 Acts 20:28;
1 Peter 5:1-3 Deacons Phil. 1:1 1 Tim. 3:8-13 Acts 6:1-6
The Bible contains several passages where the office of Pope ought to be mentioned, if it existed. Ephesians 4:11,12 and 1 Corinthians 12:28 list various officers and workers in the church, but the office of Pope is not mentioned. Why not? BECAUSE A POPE IS NOT COMMANDED ANYWHERE
The Bible Says Jesus Is the Head of the Church. and Says Jesus Is the Church's Foundation.
Matthew 16:13-18 - This passage is often used to try to prove Peter is the foundation of the church . But the passages already studied prove that Jesus, not Peter or the Pope, is the foundation of the church. Matthew 16. actually confirms this truth.
The context (v13,15,16) is not discussing who Peteris nor what his position is, but who Jesus is and what His position is. The passage does not exalt Peter; it exalts Jesus. Jesus does not confess Peter; Peter confessesJesus.
The verse is not saying Peter is the rock on which the church is built, but rather it contrasts Peter's name (Greek PETROS, masculine - a piece of rock) to the rock on which the church would be built (Greek PETRA, feminine - a solid ledge of rock).
Jesus often compared Himself to inanimate objects - a temple (John 2:18-22), a door (John 10:7), a vine (John 15:1-11). Here He compares Himself to a rock, a name often used for Deity in the Old Testament (Psa. 31:3; 71:3; 89:26ff; 18:2f,32f).
The foundation of the church is not Peter. It is the truth that Peter had just confessed - that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God (v16). This is confirmed by the context and by other Scriptures. To say Peter is the foundation would be to put a man in the place of Deity! The lives of Peter and of the Popes make them entirely unfit to be the foundation of Jesus' church.
Consider some great sins in the life of Peter.
* Immediately after talking about the foundation of the church, Christ rebuked Peter saying: "Get behind me, satan, thou art a scandal to me; for thou dost not mind the things of God, but those of men" (Matthew 16:21-23).
* Peter denied Jesus 3 times, even with curses and swearing (Matthew 26:69-75).
* Jesus rebuked Peter's lack of faith (Matthew 14:22-31).
* Peter was hypocritical and disobeyed the gospel (Galatians 2:11ff). Now consider sins in the lives of Catholic Popes.
The following facts have been gleaned from the Catholic Dictionary and the Catholic Encyclopedia (at www.newadvent.org/cathen/).
* At least 4 Popes are admitted to have had illegitimate children.
* At least 5 Popes were sons of priests, including at least one (maybe two) Popes who were sons of other Popes! (Some of these priests may have been married but left their families to become priests.)
* At least 6 Popes were excommunicated or condemned as heretics, including one Pope who was excommunicated twice and two Popes who excommunicated one another!
"In the first twelve centuries of her existence the Church was disturbed some twenty-five times by rival claimants of the Papacy. The strife thus originated was always an occasion of scandal, sometimes of violence and bloodshed ... For forty years (in the 14th century) two and even three pretenders to the Papacy claimed the allegiance of Catholics: whole countries, learned men and canonised saints, ranged themselves on different sides, and even now it is not perhaps absolutely certain who was Pope..." (Catholic Dictionary, Addis & Arnold, p. 869). Who can believe that Christ's church is founded on an office occupied by such men as these? Imagine Jesus' church supposedly going through long periods of time in which nobody really knows who was the real head of the church! How much better to accept the plain Bible teaching that the church is founded on the sinless, Divine Son of God!
Those people were pagans. Catholics are not pagans and hence it does not apply.
The figure and shapes means nothing. Praying to a crucifix is praying to God. As I said Christianity cannot be a pagan religion despite the presence of images and statues in the church.
A prayer to the Mother of God is a prayer to God. God hears ALL prayers and is not petty or jealous of his mother.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Your bible knowledge is very weak.
You said: Praying to a crucifix is praying to God
-Wrong that is IDOLATRY
You said: A prayer to the Mother of God is a prayer to God.
-Praying to Mary is a sin and idolatry.
PRAY TO THE FATHER Ephesians 3:14-16
14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,[a] 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man,
Matthew 6:9
9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
We can only approach the father through Jesus John 14:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
You can google search and cheery pick and find the word tradition all you want, but Catholicism and not passed down the same traditions the Apostles were passing down
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