Do Catholics Believe Transubstantiation-The Doctrine of Real Presence? (Tanakh, beliefs, exodus)
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Hey guys, I realize the tremendous pressure put on you to believe it, considering what happens if you doubt it:
The Council of Trent taught:
If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA. [105]
If anyone says that in the sacred and, holy sacrament of the Eucharist the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denies that wonderful and singular change of the whole substance of the bread into the body and the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the appearances only of bread and wine remaining, which change the Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA. [106]
Definition Anathema-2. a formal curse by a pope or a council of the Church, excommunicating a person for denouncing a doctrine.
No one wants to be cursed.
Julian got it right when he said; "I still don't buy [it]. However, recently, I heard another definition that makes sense. If you do an analysis of the communion you find bread and not Jesus. If Jesus had blood tests and a cat scan/MRI you would find a man and not God."
Hey guys, I realize the tremendous pressure put on you to believe it, considering what happens if you doubt it:
The Council of Trent taught:
If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA. [105]
If anyone says that in the sacred and, holy sacrament of the Eucharist the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denies that wonderful and singular change of the whole substance of the bread into the body and the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the appearances only of bread and wine remaining, which change the Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA. [106]
Definition Anathema-2. a formal curse by a pope or a council of the Church, excommunicating a person for denouncing a doctrine.
No one wants to be cursed.
Julian got it right when he said; "I still don't buy [it]. However, recently, I heard another definition that makes sense. If you do an analysis of the communion you find bread and not Jesus. If Jesus had blood tests and a cat scan/MRI you would find a man and not God."
The Council of Trent is a Knee Jerk reaction to the Reformation. A bunch of Catholics saying protestants got it wrong. No different than some folks on the forum saying The RCC is wrong. This intolerance works both ways. The only saving grace is that the Catholic intolerants lived in the 16th century. One would think things would be a bit different five centuries later.
In any event lets look at the Eucharist in this manner:
Let go ahead and agree with the Reformists that there is nothing there. Jesus is nowhere to be seen in the Eucharist. I hesitated with this concept off and on, but lets go there.
Minister Vizio said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Once a month. When I first came here it was quarterly. I wanted to do it more often, so we went to monthly. More than that and I believe it becomes something we do out of habit. I have been in churches where I took it weekly--and people didn't consider it a "special" thing. It was just something they did.
Vizio does not think the Eucharist is special -----------even if they do it 12 times a year folks are bored. His parishioners do not think it is special at all. That is very telling because Vizio is telling them there is nothing there.
Is that what we what for the Eucharist? A meaningless act that gets people bored to death?
It makes sense!!!!! If the church and preacher believes Jesus is not present then people get bored because they do not get to be united with Jesus. It becomes a meaningless boring ritual.
IMHO, the alternative is much worse. NO Jesus in the Eucharist, folks are bored and no one is united with Jesus.
Hey guys, I realize the tremendous pressure put on you to believe it, considering what happens if you doubt it:
Meh. I think most Catholics believe it because they have faith.
Though it would be interesting to see if any actual practicing Catholics say they've felt tremendous pressure to believe it. I'll take the word of an actual practicing Catholic over the theory of a fundamentalist every.single.time.
Such a simple thing, faith. Yes. People can actually believe through simple faith. No pressure needed.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 01-13-2014 at 06:29 PM..
Meh. I think most Catholics believe it because they have faith.
Though it would be interesting to see if any actual practicing Catholics say they've felt tremendous pressure to believe it. I'll take the word of an actual practicing Catholic over the theory of a fundamentalist every.single.time.
Such a simple thing, faith. Yes. People can actually believe through simple faith. No pressure needed.
I agree!
Furthermore, the RCC applies to pressure to the parishioners anymore. Those days are long gone. The level of involvement of a Catholic parishioner is as little as twice a year mass, Sunday mass or daily mass. But, in the end no one is pressured to do anything.
A Church Divided by Mike Filce
Mike Filce lives in South Lake Tahoe, attends St. Theresa Church and teaches English at South Tahoe High School. His wife, Anne, is a teaching-principal at St. Theresa Catholic School; his daughter, Cara, attended St. Theresa School since kindergarten and is now a 10th grader at South Tahoe High School; his son, Charlie, is entering the eighth grade at St. Theresa.
We are a church divided. And though it is a division that goes unspoken and unseen, it is one that tears at the very heart of our Faith.
This is not a division over abortion, premarital and extra marital sex, or other hot-button issues, but one more firmly rooted in the foundations of our faith than any other issue—over the doctrine of Transubstantiation.
Nonetheless, it is for many a difficult doctrine to “swallow.†According to John Young, theologian and philosopher, “Protestants reject transubstantiation, and so do many Catholic scholars. The average Catholic is vague concerning the nature of the Eucharistic presence of Christ, and one can sympathize with him, in view of the lack of clear teaching about the Most Blessed Sacrament.
And so, we go about the practice of our religion—attending mass regularly, supporting our parish schools, participating in the sacraments, and most importantly, walking up the aisle, answering “Amen,†and taking the host into our body, returning unchallenged to our pews. No one stands up to declare us “anathema†if our acceptance is less than wholehearted, for who besides God can know what is in our hearts? And even if we also participate in the sacrament of Reconciliation and confess our sins, Transubstantiation is not a regular topic in the confessional. We remain safe in our unbelief.
Don't get me wrong, Mr. Filce does NOT contend the real presence is not real.
Oh, sorry the priest I used to talk about this doctrine with used grape juice. My mistake for not knowing they weren't all the same.
Since the church requires wine made only from grapes, it makes sense that in some cases grape juice would be used in the place of wine. Though the vast majority of priests are going to use wine I believe.
That is what the church teaches since that is what Jesus told the apostles. He said it is, not it represents.
Janelle, as much as it pains me (and believe it, it does! ) to side with Vizio on this issue, I can't help but agree with him (but just this once! )
A simile is a comparison using 'like' or 'as'. Example: My love is like a red, red rose.
A metaphor is saying some is something else. Example: You are my sunshine.
When Jesus said, "This is my body," (when referring to the bread) and "This is my blood," (when referring to the wine), there is no reason for us to assume that He was referring to His actual body and blood any more than the person who says, "You are my sunshine," means it literally. You are right that He did say what you're claiming He said, but it's impossible for you, me, or anyone else to say unequivocably that he was speaking of His literal body and blood. The fact that He said this before His crucifixion very strongly leads me to believe that He was saying that the bread and wine are representative of His body and blood. I don't believe the Apostles believed they were actually eating His flesh and drinking His blood as they sat there with Him. If you do, that's fine with me. I'm just saying that metaphors are not at all uncommon, and Vizio's example of Christ claiming (in John 10:9), "I amthe door" is a good one. Jesus did not say, "I represent the door," but I believe we would all agree that He is not a piece of wood swinging back and forth on a couple of hinges.
Janelle, as much as it pains me (and believe it, it does! ) to side with Vizio on this issue, I can't help but agree with him (but just this once! )
A simile is a comparison using 'like' or 'as'. Example: My love is like a red, red rose.
A metaphor is saying some is something else. Example: You are my sunshine.
When Jesus said, "This is my body," (when referring to the bread) and "This is my blood," (when referring to the wine), there is no reason for us to assume that He was referring to His actual body and blood any more than the person who says, "You are my sunshine," means it literally. You are right that He did say what you're claiming He said, but it's impossible for you, me, or anyone else to say unequivocably that he was speaking of His literal body and blood. The fact that He said this before His crucifixion very strongly leads me to believe that He was saying that the bread and wine are representative of His body and blood. I don't believe the Apostles believed they were actually eating His flesh and drinking His blood as they sat there with Him. If you do, that's fine with me. I'm just saying that metaphors are not at all uncommon, and Vizio's example of Christ claiming (in John 10:9), "I amthe door" is a good one. Jesus did not say, "I represent the door," but I believe we would all agree that He is not a piece of wood swinging back and forth on a couple of hinges.
Except Jesus knew the people understood Him to be saying---this is truly my body and blood and unless you eat and drink you will not have everlasting life. When they left Him, He did not say----come back I didn't mean it that way.
FYI, traditional Lutheran doctrine from the Book of Concord also defends the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the sacrament. There are additional texts from 1 Corinthians that also defend the real presence.
1Co 10:16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
1Co 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Note these words. If Jesus does not give his body and blood in the sacrament, how is it possible to sin against them by receiving them unworthily?
However, Lutheran doctrine is not the same as Rome. We believe that Christians also received the bread and wine with the body and blood of Christ, since Paul also refers to the eating of bread in the sacrament. We also believe that the real presence lasts only as long as the worship service and is not permanent.
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) to side with Vizio on this issue, I can't help but agree with him (but just this once! 
)
