Do Catholics Believe Transubstantiation-The Doctrine of Real Presence? (women, evolution, prayer)
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Many Protestants do not believe that Jesus is present in the Eucharist.
Given the OP title and the OP post are about catholics, I fail to see how the key issue is about protestants? You have lost me here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
Doing an analysis of the Eucharist looking for human flesh is misleading.
Not really. As I said in an earlier post I have found that a large number of Catholics really do believe in a real world change. My experiments were... and are.... to show such people that no detectable change is present.
That such Catholics are believing something their church is not actually espousing is a different issue, and one I am well aware of. You would probably do well to also read the first post I made in this thread rather than just the more recent one.
Given the OP title and the OP post are about catholics, I fail to see how the key issue is about protestants? You have lost me here.
Not really. As I said in an earlier post I have found that a large number of Catholics really do believe in a real world change. My experiments were... and are.... to show such people that no detectable change is present.
That such Catholics are believing something their church is not actually espousing is a different issue, and one I am well aware of. You would probably do well to also read the first post I made in this thread rather than just the more recent one.
Whether Jesus is present or not is moot.
What really matters is the effect on the person taking communion.
Applying science to religion is futile. That is why is called religion!
And I think it is important to point out many Protestants do not believe in communion. That is why they putdown the Eucharist.
Quite the opposite. The presence of Jesus or other members of the Trinity is the whole point of trans-substantiation is it not? How can you simply declare moot the very thing the entire subject is all about? That seems odd to me and little more than a derail attempt on the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
What really matters is the effect on the person taking communion.
The effect would appear to be that the person in question takes on a few grams of carbohydrate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
Applying science to religion is futile. That is why is called religion!
That depends on the claim any particular person is actually making. Clearly applying science to the claim a very real transformation occurs is not futile. The results show very clearly that no change occurs.
If however the person is claiming a spiritual change, then this is an unfalsifiable claims, and science has nothing to say on the subject of unfalsifiable claims. It is like a "magician" pulling an invisible and undetectable rabbit out of a seemingly empty hat.
But in general no, applying science to religion is not futile. There are whole books being written on the subject of bringing Science to Bear to study Religion as a Natural Phenomenon. I recommend for example Daniel Dennetts "Breaking the spell" which is a treatise on the very subject of how religion can and should be treated as a natural phenomenon well within the purview of science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
And I think it is important to point out many Protestants do not believe in communion. That is why they putdown the Eucharist.
Moderator cut: delete And the answer I have given to this topic is that Catholics beliefs on the matter appears to fall into three main groups. Those that think the ceremony is symbolic only, those that think some metaphysical but undetectable change occurs, and those that think some very real world change occurs.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-05-2014 at 07:53 AM..
Reason: Please leave the modertating to the mods
Moderator cut: orphaned quote And the answer I have given to this topic is that Catholics beliefs on the matter appears to fall into three main groups. Those that think the ceremony is symbolic only, those that think some metaphysical but undetectable change occurs, and those that think some very real world change occurs.
Whatever a person believes is moot because we are talking about religion.
In religion anything goes.
The rules within religion do not have to make sense according to the physical reality.
I still think the key issue is that Protestants do not like the concept of the Eucharist.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-05-2014 at 07:55 AM..
Catholics believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are contained in the Eucharist in the form of bread and wine. Meaning no physical change has been made but rather a spiritual change has been made. But we do believe that after consecration, that IS the body and blood of Christ. (Just as Christ instructed us at the last supper.)
Do some Catholics believe it is physical flesh and blood? I'm sure there are a few out there that do. But that is not the teaching of the Church. All religons, groups, organizations have members who are misinformed or just accept their own version of the truth. The Catholic Church is no different. Do some Baptists drink? Do some republicans support liberal welfare laws? Do some democrats support a large military? You get the idea.
Whatever a person believes is moot because we are talking about religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
I still think the key issue is that Protestants do not like the concept of the Eucharist.
Moderator cut: delete
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iam4USC
All religons, groups, organizations have members who are misinformed or just accept their own version of the truth.
That is true indeed. What struck me however during my experimentations was A) Just how many people seemed to believe the "wrong" thing and B) Just how little effort the Catholic church (at least in Ireland England Germany and Poland as I have no direct experience of anywhere else) put into correcting those errors or informing their flock of what it is they are admonished to believe.
And as I said I have a very clear, albeit cynical, theory as to why point B) might be in the interest of the church.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-05-2014 at 08:01 AM..
Reason: report to the moderators if you think someone is off topic
That is true indeed. What struck me however during my experimentations was A) Just how many people seemed to believe the "wrong" thing and B) Just how little effort the Catholic church (at least in Ireland England Germany and Poland as I have no direct experience of anywhere else) put into correcting those errors or informing their flock of what it is they are admonished to believe.
And as I said I have a very clear, albeit cynical, theory as to why point B) might be in the interest of the church.
Do you really think that even if the Pope himself came out onto the balcony after Mass on Sunday and spoke to the world to clear up this issue, nothing would change. People believe what they want. Even if the Pope spoke out against it, they would interpret it they way they want to. I see it in this forum all the time. You can clearly state something and intrepret it it one way and others see it completely different.
Who knows, maybe my interpretation is wrong. Actually, it is. To those who think differently than I.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-05-2014 at 08:05 AM..
Do you really think that even if the Pope himself came out onto the balcony after Mass on Sunday and spoke to the world to clear up this issue, nothing would change.
I am a member of many clubs and similar. One thing that they all do, almost unanimously, is put information leaflets at the entrances to their Club Houses. These inform members and prospective members of the basic tenets of the mission statement of the club, how and why it was formed, a short history, and some basics of the clubs philosophy.
Given the amount of money tied up in the Catholic church would it really be difficult for them to make at least SOME attempt to educate their flock. Remember clubs are doing it just for fun. This church for all its wealth claims to be shepherding the well being of peoples ETERNAL SOULS.
So yes I do expect some effort, some leaflets, some educations, and the MD of the business... said Pope you mentioned.... to engage in a bit of education and pontificating on the matter. If I truely believed I had knowledge that was important to the well being of peoples Eternal Soul then I would not sit on my heiney simply letting people in my congregation go around thinking they can believe any what not they feel like.
Would any attempt be entirely effective? Of course not, in this you are wholly correct. Does that negate the reasoning for at least making the attempt? Hell no. Quite the opposite.
I am a member of many clubs and similar. One thing that they all do, almost unanimously, is put information leaflets at the entrances to their Club Houses. These inform members and prospective members of the basic tenets of the mission statement of the club, how and why it was formed, a short history, and some basics of the clubs philosophy.
Given the amount of money tied up in the Catholic church would it really be difficult for them to make at least SOME attempt to educate their flock. Remember clubs are doing it just for fun. This church for all its wealth claims to be shepherding the well being of peoples ETERNAL SOULS.
So yes I do expect some effort, some leaflets, some educations, and the MD of the business... said Pope you mentioned.... to engage in a bit of education and pontificating on the matter. If I truely believed I had knowledge that was important to the well being of peoples Eternal Soul then I would not sit on my heiney simply letting people in my congregation go around thinking they can believe any what not they feel like.
Would any attempt be entirely effective? Of course not, in this you are wholly correct. Does that negate the reasoning for at least making the attempt? Hell no. Quite the opposite.
The Pope is a world leader and the Vicar of Christ. As the leader of Christendom the Pope has bigger fish to fry.
Catechism is provided to children that attend private Catholic Schools.
Catechism is also provided to kids that cannot afford private Catholic education. The education regarding the Eucharist is given before the First Communion. Obviously most kids forget the whole thing about communion once they grow up. However, kids are instructed in great detail.
As you well know people cannot show up and take communion without a proper education on the Eucharist. As you know this is one of the points of contention of many Protestants who believe anyone should take communion in the CC regardless of Catholic education on the Eucharist.
BTW, when you are a member of a parish no one will try to absorb you or proselytize to you regarding dogma. This is not how Catholics operate. If you want something extra it is up to you. The parish will not try to absorb you or make you comply with their rules.
There also has to be some personal responsibility as a Catholic to educate yourself. It isn't the Pope's job to baby sit and spoon feed every Catholic.
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