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I will tell everyone this... If you REALLY watch those videos, you will discover there is nothing for us to be afraid of. The antichrist will not have control over the whole world. IN FACT, there are certain places in the Bible where it states the nations that will not be under his rule. I'm 98% positive that the United States will not be under the rule of the antichrist. This is talked about in one of the lessons. Either lesson 4, 8 or 9. I'm leaning more towards 9 because I think he discusses who will have to take the mark and that's when he talks about the U.S. not being under his rule.
ALL SCRIPTURES POINT TO POST-TRIB. AGAIN... THERE'S NOTHING TO BE AFRAID OF!!!
No, the Scriptures do not point to a post-Tribulational rapture. The church will be in heaven during the Tribulation. The church, referred as the bride is in heaven in Revelation 19:7-8 and has been made ready for the marriage of the Lamb. The marriage does not take place with a partial bride. The entire church will have been raptured before Daniel's 70th week begins. The church will return with Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
I've read that same exact article on different websites. That's actually kinda funny. Does anybody know how to write their own articles these days without copying and pasting other peoples words?
I'd like to see solid proof in scriptures where it states the church will be raptured out before the antichrist. By all means... someone show me =)
Simply refer to one of my threads on the pre-tribulational rapture of the church.
I don't know how anyone who has actually read the Book of Revelation could make the claim that the Trumpet judgments don't follow the seal judgments when Revelation 8:1 plainly states that the seven angels are given seven trumpets after the seventh seal has been broken.
The seventh seal begins the trumpet judgments and the bowl judgments follow the trumpet judgments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pastorALly
Here's something about Irvin Baxter I picked up listening to him once in person. It surprised me to find someone else had noticed this too.
Dr. David Reagan writes,
THIS COMES FROM A DIGITAL BOOK I HAVE ON FILE CALLED: The Secret to Understanding
Revelation
TAKE A LOOK:
Quote:
The 7-Year Chronological Order Theory
The most commonly held theory about the sequence of endtime events is that the book of
Revelation was written in chronological order. The theory states that endtime events will happen in the order they appear in Revelation. “The interpretive approach to understanding Revelation,” it is commonly written, “is to accept the chronological order of the book and its plain sense meaning.”
Let’s now take a look at this theory. Is it true?
The theory states that the rapture of the church happens in Chapter 4, verse 1. This is followed by 7 years of hell-on-earth.
In the next several charts we will explore the implications of a chronologically-written book. If the events are, in fact, recorded in sequential order, then we are presented with all kinds of theological problems.
Does Babylon Fall Once Or Twice?
Revelation 14:8
“And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great
city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
Revelation 18:2
“And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen,
is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit,
and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.”
In Revelation 14:8 we read, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city.” According to the
Chronological Order Theory, Babylon is gone by Chapter 14. It is no more.
According to the Theory, however, Babylon must somehow be rebuilt, because we read that it falls again four chapters later! We read in Revelation 18:2, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen.”
Does Babylon fall twice, or are there simply two accounts of the fall of Babylon?
One Earthquake or Five?
Revelation 6:12 “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great
earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became
as blood;”
Revelation 8:5
“And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the
earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.”
Revelation 11:13
“And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and
in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted,
and gave glory to the God of heaven.”
Revelation 11:19
“And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark
of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”
Revelation 16:18
“And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake,
such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.”
We see that several earthquakes are recorded in Revelation. The first is “a great earthquake,” and it occurs in the 6th chapter.
The second, in Chapter 8, is recorded as “an earthquake.”
“A great earthquake” occurs in Revelation 11:13.
Six verses later there is “an earthquake.”
One final earthquake is noted in the 16th chapter.
The Chronological Order Theory places 5 earthquakes over 7 years. There is another possible explanation, however. Perhaps there is only one earthquake, with Revelation giving 5 separate accounts of it.
How many times will there be great darkness?
Revelation 6:12
“And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;”
Revelation 16:10
“And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was
full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,”
How many times will great hail fall?
Revelation 11:19
“And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark
of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”
Revelation 16:21 “And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a
talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof
was exceeding great.”
Will mountains and islands move more than once?
Revelation 6:14
“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and
island were moved out of their places.”
Revelation 16:20
“And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.”
Is it plausible that the sun would be darkened twice? The first would occur early — in the 6th chapter.
The second, in the 16th. Or maybe the sun goes dark only once, and the events described in the 6th chapter and 16th chapter are the same event.
Will devastating hail really fall twice? What would be left after the first?
How many times will every mountain and island be moved?
At what point will the wrath of God be poured out?
Revelation 6:17
“For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
Revelation 11:18
“And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they
should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and
to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”
Revelation 14:9-10 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the
beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall
drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup
of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of
the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:”
Revelation 14:19
“And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and
cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.”
Revelation 15:1
“And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven
last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.”
Revelation 16:1 “And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your
ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.”
Revelation 19:15 “And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the
nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress
of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”
Under the Chronological Order Theory, the great day of God’s Wrath would come early in the book of Revelation — Chapter 6. But in the 11th chapter, we see God’s Wrath coming again.
Two chapters later, curiously, God’s Wrath is presented as a future event. Later in that same chapter, God’s Wrath is poured out.
In Chapter 15 we find that God’s Wrath is once again presented as a future event! It is poured out (again) in Chapter 16.
Finally, in Chapter 19, Revelation describes the Wrath of the Almighty God.
Will the great day of God’s Wrath really be poured out 5 separate times? Why would John, the writer of Revelation, present God’s Wrath as a future event twice in the middle of the book?
Is the entire book of Revelation the Wrath of God? Or from Chapter 4 and onward? There is no scripture in the Bible to indicate either of these things.
Maybe the answer is this: God’s Wrath is poured out once, but it is described in different ways at different points in the book.
Revelation Is Not Chronological
The book of Revelation is not in chronological order. The theory is helplessly flawed. There is an order to Revelation, but it’s not chronological from front to back. In this series we will discover the order, and we’ll place each event onto a timeline.
Summary
John categorized everything written in the book of Revelation into one of three categories — Things which thou hast seen, things which are and things which shall be hereafter. This tells us immediately that the entire book is not prophetic. Not all of Revelation is future.
After introducing Jesus Christ in Chapter 1, we then read John’s seven letters to the seven churches in Asia. Were these merely letters to churches that existed in his day, or did they mean something deeper? Were they really prophecies of seven future “Church Ages?” Clearly, these were seven letters to seven churches. The problems that existed in the churches of John’s day still very much exist in churches today. There is no reason to assume otherwise. Chapters 2 and 3 fall into the John’s “things which are” category.
In the first verse of Chapter 4, John clearly shifts to his third category — “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” Chapter 4 begins prophecies for future events.
We are given three different views of the endtime. Each view gives different details, not unlike how Matthew, Mark, Luke and John record the life of Christ from four different perspectives.
The first view of prophetic events given in Revelation is the 7 Seals. The Seals are the long story, and they end at Armageddon. The second account is told through the 7 Trumpets. The Trumpets contain a shorter view than the Seals, meaning they span a shorter period of time. But they have the same ending point — Armageddon. The 7 Vials are the last story. The Vials are the very short account of endtime events, and they, too, end at Armageddon.
Because there are three different starting points all with the same ending point, we can know that Revelation is not written chronologically from beginning to end
.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-17-2014 at 08:50 AM..
Reason: rude remark
If the link doesn't work, but comes up with this message,- 'Sorry - no matches or filtered words used in the search query. Please try some different terms.', then click on my username, then on 'view public profile', then on 'statistics' and then on 'Find all threads by Mike555.'
And of course there are people who simply will not be objective about the subject. That is to be expected. But the simple fact of the matter is that the Scriptures show that the church will not go through the Tribulation. So with at least five threads on the subject I am not going to address it any further at this time.
Sit back - wait - watch and enjoy the show that is about to begin!
This is kinda why I wanted to start this thread. I knew people would be all up in arms and I wanted to go ahead and give them plenty of time to say what they wanted. Then when the time came, they would be on record showing they disagreed.
I'm beyond excited!!! Irvin plans on coming out with a new video about the blood moons. It should be out soon. I'm chomping at the bits.
With that said... I sure do hope the peace agreement still stands for April 29th! I'm pretty sure they will have that temple built in NO TIME! They have EVERYTHING they need.
So, if you're going to stick to these theories, then you should be prepared to back up what you say. Are you ready to see what you're holding on to vs. what Irvin Baxter believes??? Buckle up...
THIS COMES FROM A DIGITAL BOOK I HAVE ON FILE CALLED: The Secret to Understanding
Revelation
TAKE A LOOK:
.
Listen carefully. Revelation 8:1 states plainly that the 7 angels are given the trumpets when the seventh seal is broken.
Revelation is in the overall sense, in chronological order as Revelation 1:19 which gives the general outline of Revelation shows. The church age comes first. then the Tribulation, then the events which follow the Tribulation. Now it has been shown in Revelation 8:1 that the trumpet judgments start with the breaking of the seventh seal. IT HAS BEEN SHOWN!!! And that means that the bowl judgments come after the trumpet judgments.
Listen carefully. Revelation 8:1 states plainly that the 7 angels are given the trumpets when the seventh seal is broken.
Revelation is in the overall sense, in chronological order as Revelation 1:19 which gives the general outline of Revelation shows. The church age comes first. then the Tribulation, then the events which follow the Tribulation. Now it has been shown in Revelation 8:1 that the trumpet judgments start with the breaking of the seventh seal. IT HAS BEEN SHOWN!!! And that means that the bowl judgments come after the trumpet judgments.
So that means, if you're sticking with the chronological order theory then:
Babylon falls twice
There will be 5 earthquakes over 7 years
There be great darkness twice
Great hail will fall twice
Mountains and islands move twice
The wrath of God will be poured out 7 times
...Yeah... I don't think so.
Again... Under the Chronological Order Theory, the great day of God’s Wrath would come early in the book of Revelation — Chapter 6. But in the 11th chapter, we see God’s Wrath coming again.
Two chapters later, curiously, God’s Wrath is presented as a future event. Later in that same chapter, God’s Wrath is poured out.
In Chapter 15 we find that God’s Wrath is once again presented as a future event! It is poured out (again) in Chapter 16.
Finally, in Chapter 19, Revelation describes the Wrath of the Almighty God.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-17-2014 at 09:05 AM..
1988
"Among the hot media topics of 1988 was the much-publicized prediction that the world was ending. It was set off by publication of Edgar Whisenate’s book, 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Happen in 1988. Wondering whether the prediction might be accurate, many people asked Irvin. In his study of Bible passages, he found no support for the prediction and reported his conclusion: it was inaccurate."
So that means, if you're sticking with the chronological order theory then:
Babylon falls twice
There will be 5 earthquakes over 7 years
There be great darkness twice
Great hail will fall twice
Mountains and islands move twice
The wrath of God will be poured out 7 times
...Yeah... I don't think so.
Again... Under the Chronological Order Theory, the great day of God’s Wrath would come early in the book of Revelation — Chapter 6. But in the 11th chapter, we see God’s Wrath coming again.
Two chapters later, curiously, God’s Wrath is presented as a future event. Later in that same chapter, God’s Wrath is poured out.
In Chapter 15 we find that God’s Wrath is once again presented as a future event! It is poured out (again) in Chapter 16.
Finally, in Chapter 19, Revelation describes the Wrath of the Almighty God.
Funny, because I was thinking the same thing about you. You're the one that's going to be completely shocked.
God's wrath is poured out through out through out the course of the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments. The judgments get worse as the judgments progress from the seal judgments to the trumpet judgments to the bowl judgments. For instance, in the fourth seal judgment 1/4 of the world's population will die (Rev. 6:8). And later, with the sixth trumpet judgment 1/3 of the remaining world's population will die (Rev. 9:15).
How is it that you do not understand that Revelation 8:1 plainly states that it is when the seventh seal is broken that the seven angels are given the seven trumpets which will sound during the trumpet judgments? This shows plainly that the seal judgments take place before the trumpet judgments.
Demonstrate how a chronological progression means that Babylon falls twice.
Demonstrate how a chronological progression means that Babylon falls twice.
Look at this chronological progression...
Rev 14:8 A second angel followed, saying, “Babylon has fallen! The great city Babylon has fallen! She made all the nations drink of the wine of her sinful sex life.”
Rev 18:1-2 Then I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had much power. The earth was made bright with his shining-greatness. He cried out with a loud voice, “The big and powerful city of Babylon is destroyed. Demons and every kind of unclean spirit live there. Unclean birds that are hated are there.
If you would have read POST #64 you would have seen how chronological progression repeats itself. It's not chronological progression, different accounts all throughout the book in no order.
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