If there is no Pre-Trib Rapture, are you prepared to go through the Tribulation??? (believe, scriptures)
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The tribulation is only for the Jewish believers. The believers of the nations will be caught away to meet Christ in the air prior to the tribulation.
Sorry Eusebius, but you may be of Jewish bloodline without knowing it. But read what Paul says the promises are of the Jews. Is the Rapture a promise? If the Gentiles are co-heirs in Christ how they have the privilege to be raptured first. Are there two raptures and two brides and two weddings? And when God is making one new man of both, why do you devide?
Sorry Eusebius, but you may be of Jewish bloodline without knowing it. But read what Paul says the promises are of the Jews. Is the Rapture a promise? If the Gentiles are co-heirs in Christ how they have the privilege to be raptured first. Are there two raptures and two brides and two weddings? And when God is making one new man of both, why do you devide?
There is only one snatching away of the believers of the nations to the air and then to the heavens.
The Jews have no such thing. They are merely resurrected and enter into the kingdom IN Israel.
He comes back for us and does not set foot on the land since we meet Him in the air.
With the Jews He later comes back and sets foot on Mt. Zion. Dig?
Where else does Paul use the word salvation where he does not mean the eternal kind? In Acts 27:33 Paul uses the word sōtērias which means salvation or deliverance or preservation, with regard to physical deliverance.
Acts 27:33 Until the day was about to dawn, Paul was encouraging them all to take some food, saying, "Today is the fourteenth day that you have been constantly watching and going without eating, having taken nothing. 34] "Therefore I encourage you to take some food, for this is for your preservation (sōtērias - salvation, deliverance [Strong's 4991]), for not a hair from the head of any of you will perish."
That same word - sōtērias is used for eternal salvation in Acts 4:12.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation (sōtēria - deliverance, salvation [Strong's 4991]) in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
In Hebrews 11:7 sōtērian - salvation or deliverance is used of the physical deliverance of Noah's family from the flood.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for thesalvation(sōtērian - salvation, deliverance [Strong's 4991]) of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Wow, great work.
But here's the thing:
You can show by context that Paul in this case must be referring to ETERNAL SALVATION, because he immediately says in the next sentence he says..."Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever."
The entire section, again, reads:
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with himforever."
See the words SALVATION and FOREVER there?
Paul is taking about our ETERNAL SALVATION with Christ...not salvation from Tribulation. If he meant that, he would have said so.
Regarding the example with Noah...it clearly says "salvation of his household" so of course we know from context that in this case it is not talking about the eternal kind.
And in the example from Acts...it is translated as "preservation" because, again, we can clearly see from the context that this is the physical kind, and not the eternal kind.
So that doesn't work for me.
We can see from the context that I have shown above that when Paul uses the word for "salvation" in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, that it is referring to our eternal life with Christ.
You stubbornly cling to 2 things:
1) That the meaning of SALVATION here is not eternal...when we can see that Paul continues his concept in the next sentence which IS talking about our ETERNAL LIFE WITH CHRIST.
and
2) That the "Last Trumpet" refered to in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is just some lone trumpet somewhere that corresponds to nothing else in scripture, and not the Last Trumpet during the Tribulation.
You wilfully ignore the fact that LAST means there are other Trumpets in the group. You won't even let yourself see how plainly true that is. I know the Tribulation sounds scary...but dude...
So it seems you convince yourself that this makes sense, in order to preserve your erroneous notion that there is a Pre-Trib rapture. You know you have no scriptural evidence. My argument actually stands up. All you can do is speculate, based on other people's work, that, when you look closely at it, just doesn't wash.
We can keep going on and on if you like. I have plenty of time. People are reading this and can tell what adds up and what doesn't. I know you will never admit that what I'm saying is true.
Last edited by TwoWitnesses; 02-28-2014 at 04:29 PM..
The bride in Revelation 19:7-8 is the Church. In 2 Corinthians 11:2 Paul pictures the church as a virgin bride betrothed to Christ.
2 Cor. 11:2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
The wedding of the church to Christ will take place in heaven after the church has been raptured and has stood before the judgment seat of Christ by which the bride will have been made ready for the marriage of the Lamb.
As for the last trumpet of which Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 15:52 Clarke's Commentary on the Bible has the following.
At the last trump - This, as well as all the rest of the peculiar phraseology of this chapter, is merely Jewish, and we must go to the Jewish writers to know what is intended. On this subject, the rabbins use the very same expression. Thus Rabbi Akiba: "How shall the holy blessed God raise the dead? We are taught that God has a trumpet a thousand ells long, according to the ell of God: this trumpet he shall blow, so that the sound of it shall extend from one extremity of the earth to the other. At the first blast the earth shall be shaken; at the second, the dust shall be separated; at the third, the bones shall be gathered together; at the fourth, the members shall wax warm; at the fifth, the heads shall be covered with skin; at the sixth, the souls shall be rejoined to their bodies; at the seventh, all shall revive and stand clothed." See Wetstein. This tradition shows us what we are to understand by the last trump of the apostle; it is the seventh of Rab. Akiba, when the dead shall be all raised, and, being clothed upon with their eternal vehicles, they shall be ready to appear before the judgment seat of God. 1 Corinthians 15:52 Commentaries: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
There is no correlation of the last trumpet of which Paul speaks with the seventh trumpet judgment of Revelation 11:15 which begins the seven bowl judgements.
Mike...there are references to the Church being "the body of Christ" himself and also "the bride of Christ" and then there is also the reference to the Heavenly Jerusalem as being the bride. I used to always say that the Bride was the Church as well, for years, until somone showed me the reference from Revelation.
I am going to give a real close look to this aspect of the argument, and see what it really means about the timing of the Rapture. It still may indicate a mid-Tribulational Rapture, at best. I will get back on this part after I look at a couple of things.
Where else does Paul use the word salvation where he does not mean the eternal kind? In Acts 27:33 Paul uses the word sōtērias which means salvation or deliverance or preservation, with regard to physical deliverance.
Acts 27:33 Until the day was about to dawn, Paul was encouraging them all to take some food, saying, "Today is the fourteenth day that you have been constantly watching and going without eating, having taken nothing. 34] "Therefore I encourage you to take some food, for this is for your preservation (sōtērias - salvation, deliverance [Strong's 4991]), for not a hair from the head of any of you will perish."
That same word - sōtērias is used for eternal salvation in Acts 4:12.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation (sōtēria - deliverance, salvation [Strong's 4991]) in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
In Hebrews 11:7 sōtērian - salvation or deliverance is used of the physical deliverance of Noah's family from the flood.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation (sōtērian - salvation, deliverance [Strong's 4991]) of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
And so it is seen that the Bible does not always use the word 'salvation' with regard to eternal salvation.
And there was nothing vague about what Paul said. As I said, Paul had just finished writing about the rapture of the church in 1 Thess. 4:13-18, and immediately began writing about the day of the Lord in 1 Thess. 5:1-10. And in 1 Thess. 5:9-10 Paul said - For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10] who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
The entire context of 1 Thess. 4:13 to 5:10 concerns the rapture of the church and the day of the Lord which follows the rapture of the church. And in that entire context, Hell is not mentioned even once.
Mike, I think I have this solved. Even if the Bride does in fact represent the Church...I think I can illustrate that it still would not be a Pre-Trib rapture. I'll be back in a little bit with the information.
Oh, and the reason that Paul doesn't specifically talk about Hell in that passage, but rather uses the word "wrath" is because HE NEVER MENTIONS HELL ANYWHERE. Period.
Paul uses the word SALVATION about 20 times. Now tell me...how many times is he, Paul, using that word to mean the ETERNAL KIND. Possibly every time? Or are you excluding only the time that we have been talking about. Go look it up...and tell me...how many other times was Paul not talking about the Eternal Kind?
You can show by context that Paul in this case must be referring to ETERNAL SALVATION, because he immediately says in the next sentence he says..."Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever."
The entire section, again, reads:
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever."
See the words SALVATION and FOREVER there?
Paul is taking about our ETERNAL SALVATION with Christ...not salvation from Tribulation. If he meant that, he would have said so. .
That is a good point as far as the historical millennialism heresy is concerned.
The Augsburg Confession the 17th article alludes to the origin of this error Martin Luther held the position that Millennialism is a heresy (sermon preached in 1539) John Calvin wrote that the doctrine of the millenarians is a "fiction too puerile to require or deserve refutation
That verse from scripture 1 Thessalonians 5:10 ... mind telling what translation?
Can't help but to repeat a theologian who once stated:
Millennialism outright denies the church's hope of Christ's only return to judgment and
those (who) as historically theologians describe such false teachers) as their attempt to "
transport it into the stratosphere of their own esoteric speculations" belong to the scoffers
who, Peter warned, would come, "scoffing and following their own evil desires" (2 Peter 3:3)..
REVELATION 14:8 Angel declares that Babylon is fallen, is fallen. REVELATION 14:15-16 Christ sends his angels to gather the elect REVELATION 14:17-19 Christ sends his angels to gather the wicked
We have parallel references in Revelation 18 talking about the same thing:
REVELATION 18:21-24Babylon is fallen. (Headquarter city to the Antichrist) REVELATION 19:7-9 The marriage of the Lamb is come
The Marriage of the Lamb here occurs AFTER THE FALL OF BABYLON.
Both Revelation 14 and Revelation 18-19 show the pattern to be:
A) Babylon Falls B) Rapture occurs
Here are the Scriptures:
The Fall of Babylon
Revelation 14:8
"A second angel followed and said, "'Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,' which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries"
The First Harvest (rapture reference)
Revelation 14:15-16
"And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped."
(This is the first harvest...the Rapture, which is the harvest of "the wheat" or the "gold" The second later harvest in Revelation 14: 17-19 is the harvest of "the chaff")
AND
The Fall of Babylon (reference #2)
Revelation 18:21-24
"Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.
The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. No worker of any trade will ever be found in you again. The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again.
The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world's important people. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
In her was found the blood of prophets and of God's holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth."
The Marriage of the Lamb (rapture reference #2)
Revelation 19:7-8
"Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints"
Revelation tends to be confusing because of these parallel timelines, among other things. But you can see that Babylon couldn't possibly fall twice. These are parallel references referring to the same events...and the Rapture occurs AFTER THE FALL OF BABYLON, which could not possibly be Pre-Tribulational.
You can show by context that Paul in this case must be referring to ETERNAL SALVATION, because he immediately says in the next sentence he says..."Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever."
The entire section, again, reads:
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with himforever."
See the words SALVATION and FOREVER there?
Paul is taking about our ETERNAL SALVATION with Christ...not salvation from Tribulation. If he meant that, he would have said so.
Paul is talking about deliverance from the day of the Lord as the context of 1 Thess. 4:13-5:10 plainly shows. And of course the raptured church will be with Christ forever. Once the church is raptured it goes into heaven and then appears at the judgment seat of Christ and then the marriage of the Lamb takes place. But the deliverance in context is from the wrath of the day of the Lord.
Quote:
2) That the "Last Trumpet" refered to in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is just some lone trumpet somewhere that corresponds to nothing else in scripture, and not the Last Trumpet during the Tribulation.
You wilfully ignore the fact that LAST means there are other Trumpets in the group. You won't even let yourself see how plainly true that is. I know the Tribulation sounds scary...but dude...
So it seems you convince yourself that this makes sense, in order to preserve your erroneous notion that there is a Pre-Trib rapture. You know you have no scriptural evidence. My argument actually stands up. All you can do is speculate, based on other people's work, that, when you look closely at it, just doesn't wash.
We can keep going on and on if you like. I have plenty of time. People are reading this and can tell what adds up and what doesn't. I know you will never admit that what I'm saying is true.
I already showed you in post #32 what Clarke's Commentary on the Bible said about the last trumpet. Here it is again.
As for the last trumpet of which Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 15:52 Clarke's Commentary on the Bible has the following.
At the last trump - This, as well as all the rest of the peculiar phraseology of this chapter, is merely Jewish, and we must go to the Jewish writers to know what is intended. On this subject, the rabbins use the very same expression. Thus Rabbi Akiba: "How shall the holy blessed God raise the dead? We are taught that God has a trumpet a thousand ells long, according to the ell of God: this trumpet he shall blow, so that the sound of it shall extend from one extremity of the earth to the other. At the first blast the earth shall be shaken; at the second, the dust shall be separated; at the third, the bones shall be gathered together; at the fourth, the members shall wax warm; at the fifth, the heads shall be covered with skin; at the sixth, the souls shall be rejoined to their bodies; at the seventh, all shall revive and stand clothed." See Wetstein. This tradition shows us what we are to understand by the last trump of the apostle; it is the seventh of Rab. Akiba, when the dead shall be all raised, and, being clothed upon with their eternal vehicles, they shall be ready to appear before the judgment seat of God. 1 Corinthians 15:52 Commentaries: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's take on it is as follows.
'It is evident from the fact that Paul used the definite article 'the last trump' that he expected the Corinthians to know what he was talking about. The only knowledge they would have of trumpets are those spoken of in the Old Testament, especially those of the Feast of Trumpets. The last trump refers to the Feast of Trumpets and the Jewish practice of blowing trumpets at this feast each year. During the ceremony there are a series of short trumpet sounds concluding with one long trumpet blast which is called the Tekiah Gedolah, the great trumpet blast. This is what Paul means by the last trump. As such, it says nothing concerning the timing of the rapture; only that the rapture, whenever it occurs, will fulfil the feast of trumpets.' What is the reference to the last trump all about?
http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf <---Here is Dr. Fruchtenbaum's study on the rapture. He refers to the last trumpet which is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52 on page 9.
And there are other views on what Paul meant by his reference to the 'last trumpet', but attempting to equate it with the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15 is not valid. Only those who hold to a mid or post Tribulational view attempt to do so.
Yes, I utilize the work of qualified theologians (the 'other people's work' that you mentioned). A person who refuses to avail himself of the work of experts in a given field is unwise.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-28-2014 at 05:55 PM..
I already showed you in post #32 what Clarke's Commentary on the Bible said about the last trumpet. Here it is again.
And I already told you it doesn't wash. When I read all the "yada yada yehuda" that you post...it never makes for any convincing argument. All of the thousands of words don't add up to a single provable instance of how your position is scripturally sound. It's just a bunch of people trying to pull the same trick over and over again...with different illusions. You already admitted that there is no scripture that proves it.
There's a saying that goes like this: "The truth is simple....lies are complicated."
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