If there is no Pre-Trib Rapture, are you prepared to go through the Tribulation??? (myth, belief)
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If Philip in Acts is "raptured", than harpazo means taken from one place to another by the force of God. Than Ezekiel was also "raptured". If Rev 4:1 tells us that John was taken by force, to make it the church is an assumtion, the church not mentioned is a very weak argument, the church is not mentioned in other books of the bible and is certainly not "raptured" there either.
But the church is mentioned in Revelation! In fact 7 letters to seven churches in chapters 2 & 3.
Out of the hundreds of churches in the area around Jerusalem how come only these seven are mentioned?
Why isn't the Vatican or Rome mentioned.
From Revelation 4:1 onward the church is never mentioned. But the first 3 chapters are ripe with many references.
Unless you repent you will go through the Great Tribulation. Those are the words of Jesus Christ to one of the seven churches. Thyatria
Then for 18 chapters nothing is ever mentioned ever again. hmmm
Repent or... Go through the Great Tribulation! pretty simple & straightforward WARNING!
There is only one snatching away of the believers of the nations to the air and then to the heavens.
The Jews have no such thing. They are merely resurrected and enter into the kingdom IN Israel.
He comes back for us and does not set foot on the land since we meet Him in the air.
With the Jews He later comes back and sets foot on Mt. Zion. Dig?
IMO the ones that reject Israel and replace it are the spiritual church which is called Mystery Babylon. The true body of Christ represents the spiritual Israel, the natural Israel has the promise to be grafted in. Paul makes it very clear that the Gentiles have to do their task, otherwise they can be plotted out of the olive tree which is called Israel. Jesus will sit on the throne of David and is called the King of Israel and the Holy One of Israel. It is one body. God's plan is with Israel, the Gentiles are partakers of that plan, but no covenant nor promise belongs to them, and God hates robbery, be careful, you can be on God's site and pray for the Jews that they may be grafted in, that is the resurrection from the dead or you may walk with a veil over your eyes, that you say like the harlot: "we are the ones" and be hurt in the end.
But the church is mentioned in Revelation! In fact 7 letters to seven churches in chapters 2 & 3.
Out of the hundreds of churches in the area around Jerusalem how come only these seven are mentioned?
Why isn't the Vatican or Rome mentioned.
From Revelation 4:1 onward the church is never mentioned. But the first 3 chapters are ripe with many references.
Unless you repent you will go through the Great Tribulation. Those are the words of Jesus Christ to one of the seven churches. Thyatria
Then for 18 chapters nothing is ever mentioned ever again. hmmm
Repent or... Go through the Great Tribulation! pretty simple & straightforward WARNING!
Faith that is willful thinking has no meaning at all. We have all to repent to make it through the tribulation. The 7 letters are written as an example how to endure till the end (Rev 2:26). If we want to know what the end is, Jesus tells us in Mat 13. The harvest of gathering (Rapture) and final judgement (wrath of God) go together, they happen at the end and not 7 years before the end.
REVELATION 14:8 Angel declares that Babylon is fallen, is fallen. REVELATION 14:15-16 Christ sends his angels to gather the elect REVELATION 14:17-19 Christ sends his angels to gather the wicked
We have parallel references in Revelation 18 talking about the same thing:
REVELATION 18:21-24Babylon is fallen. (Headquarter city to the Antichrist) REVELATION 19:7-9 The marriage of the Lamb is come
The Marriage of the Lamb here occurs AFTER THE FALL OF BABYLON.
Both Revelation 14 and Revelation 18-19 show the pattern to be:
A) Babylon Falls B) Rapture occurs
Here are the Scriptures:
The Fall of Babylon
Revelation 14:8
"A second angel followed and said, "'Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,' which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries"
The First Harvest (rapture reference)
Revelation 14:15-16
"And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped."
(This is the first harvest...the Rapture, which is the harvest of "the wheat" or the "gold" The second later harvest in Revelation 14: 17-19 is the harvest of "the chaff")
AND
The Fall of Babylon (reference #2)
Revelation 18:21-24
"Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.
The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. No worker of any trade will ever be found in you again. The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again.
The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world's important people. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
In her was found the blood of prophets and of God's holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth."
The Marriage of the Lamb (rapture reference #2)
Revelation 19:7-8
"Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints"
Revelation tends to be confusing because of these parallel timelines, among other things. But you can see that Babylon couldn't possibly fall twice. These are parallel references referring to the same events...and the Rapture occurs AFTER THE FALL OF BABYLON, which could not possibly be Pre-Tribulational.
To make a time-sequence from Revelation is difficult and can lead easily to mistakes. I came to the conclusion that the end of the seals, trumpets and vials are all ending with the second coming of Christ. Their duration and beginning may be different and overlapping events. But that is just an opinion. I have not studied Revelation enough. I believe that the marriage is the union with the LORD at the First resurrection and rapture, which goes together with the Wedding in Heaven. Rev 19:7+8 does not say that the Wedding was already, the contrary is the case. But you are right, revelation has enough scripture to refute Pre-trib.
I guess in one instance you are right - One doesn't exist - Six are recorded and one is coming soon.
As you know the bible never says something just once. Lets look at rapture(s) plural.
There are seven of them recorded in the bible.
1. Enoch (Genesis)
2. Elijah (Kings)
3. Phillip ( Acts)
4. Paul (Corinthians)
5. Jesus (Acts)
6. John (Revelation 4:1)
7. The Rapture of the Church (Revelation 4:1) The church is never mentioned after this chapter.
You are just repeating what you've heard/read. How do I know this? If you would have read the entire 'story' of Elijah, and understand the definition of the word 'heaven' you would know he wasn't 'taken' to the abode of God/heaven, but to some other place on the earth. That is unless, his letter written several years later, to the king was sent from heaven. I suggest you find the story and read it.
Enoch...again it doesn't say God took him to heaven and if you read the book of Hebrews he's mentioned in a list of other names and it says, they all died. Again read it for yourself.
Philip, was taken [harpazo] from one place on the earth to another.
Paul, again the word harpazo is not mentioned.
Jesus, He ascended to heaven without stopping, and NOTE...the angel told His disciples, "He will return in LIKE MANNER." In other words no hanging in mid-air and making a U-turn back to heaven. He ascended without stopping, He will descend without stopping. Believers will meet Him and escort Him back to the earth.
Look up the meaning of the word meet..... it's a military term which means to go out to meet a dignitary and escort him back to where you came from.
John, had visions of both heaven and earth and yes, the passage says, "Come up hither." However it then goes on to say, "I [John] was in the spirit." This is an idiom for having a vision. John didn't go back and forth between heaven and earth he was a mortal man...he had visions of events: past, present [his time] and future.
And to your last example, the church. The church is not mentioned in Rev. 4:1. The pronoun "I" is referring to John. Also the verb 'come' is a transitive verb which means it has no noun of its own so we must look back to the last noun mention which would be I/John.
So of all your examples the only one who actually ascended to heaven [note not raptured/harpazoed] was Christ.
Again, study all this out for yourself instead of taking a 'man's word for it [mine included].
Last edited by mshipmate; 03-01-2014 at 09:16 AM..
Reason: correct spelling
One might just want to consider from what is written there that the USA or NYC is that
mystery Babylon. No other nation/city else fits __and the time is fast approaching that we see it all unfold.
One might just want to consider from what is written there that the USA or NYC is that
mystery Babylon. No other nation/city else fits __and the time is fast approaching that we see it all unfold.
I was seriously drunk once back in 1998 and I (like a giant a$s) actually wrote an email to the White House saying I was concerned about this prophecy and a possible connection to the USA.
I guess in one instance you are right - One doesn't exist - Six are recorded and one is coming soon.
As you know the bible never says something just once. Lets look at rapture(s) plural.
There are seven of them recorded in the bible.
1. Enoch (Genesis)
2. Elijah (Kings)
3. Phillip ( Acts)
4. Paul (Corinthians)
5. Jesus (Acts)
6. John (Revelation 4:1)
7. The Rapture of the Church (Revelation 4:1) The church is never mentioned after this chapter.
Well I didn't at all say there was NO rapture in the Bible. Just not a Pre-Tribulational one for the Church.
I'm not sure what you mean by John being raptured in Rev 4:1. Didn't he come back to Earth after being in the Spirit?
As far as mention of the Churches after Rev 4:1...the reason Revelation doesn't mention "church" again after that, is that the book of Revelation starts with specific messages to Physical Churches that were on the various territories of the earth at the time. The first 3 Chapters are about this. ("To the Seven Churches in Asia")
There was no New Testament in existence for those Churches to use at the time!
This letter (REVELATION) was indended for them all to receive so they would have some powerful direction from God. Those Churches are not being raptured there at all.
Please see my Post #48 where it shows that the Rapture occurs right after the Fall of Babylon and tell me what you think.
One might just want to consider from what is written there that the USA or NYC is that
mystery Babylon. No other nation/city else fits __and the time is fast approaching that we see it all unfold.
It is all false religion including false "Christian" religions.
That it is religion and not politics/nations note;
KJV Rev 18: 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
It is "religion" of all kinds in all nations:
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
It includes false "Christian" religions.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Man has listened to Satan and tried to rule himself and failed. Man has tried to live by it's own belief systems and failed. That was the choice in Eden.
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