Hell or the Lake of Fire? (traditions, Gospels, Jehovah, testimony)
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Correct, i would be a greater savior for showing mercy to them instead of literally throwing them in the lake of fire that the fundamentalists believe they are saved from.
If only they could comprehend that mercy triumphs over justice, unfortunately they believe Jesus throwing you in the literal lake of fire is merciful to those who end up in there.
Those who are vested in the "precepts and doctrines of men" are blind to contradictions, Pleroo. They cannot allow ANY to exist and they cannot allow themselves to believe that mere men could NOT be inerrant or infallible. They refuse to contemplate deliberate editing and fabrication within the "precepts and doctrines of men" to further specific agendas. Discovering the actual historical development and provenance of the Bible used today is as disturbing as watching sausage being made!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
James 3:8-9 is talking about controlling the tongue. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of mankind being under condemnation because of sin.
Produce something from the 'mounds of evidence' you claim exists to prove that Matthew 25:41 is not an authentic saying of Jesus.
Most of your conclsions about Christ and our salvation are correct for the wrong reasons and oyur interpretations of what was said are in error. The main problem with most of your "precepts and doctrines of men", Mike is that they are translated and interpreted using the bias and corrupt understanding of God under the veil of ignorance over the OT. That makes the translations misleading. Let's take this one you seem so bent on misusing . . . Matthew 25:41. Let's look at the important part of the passage and see what it actually says in the Greek. Then we can compare it to what has been translated into English based on the existing "precepts and doctrines of men."
(ek) euōnymos poreuō apo kataraomai eis aiōnios pyr hetoimazō diabolos kai autos aggelos
The KJV:
(To those) on the left hand Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Now lets look at the possible meanings of the actual words used:
euōnymos = seeking a good name (Translated as: on the left hand)
poreuō = to follow: become his adherent (Translated as: Depart)
apo = separation of a part from the whole (Translated as: from me)
kataraomai = to curse, doom, imprecate evil upon (Translated as: ye cursed)
eis = on/into
aiōnios = eonian, of an eon (Translated as: everlasting)
pyr = (origin from pu meaning to purify) (Translated as fire)
hetoimazō = to make ready, prepare (Translated as: prepared for the)
diabolos = false accuser (Translated as: devil)
kai = and
autos = his
aggelos = messengers (Translated as: angels)
Do you see the obvious bias towards a punishing, vengeful OT God in the choice of translated words and context???
(To those) on the left hand Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Another way to read the SAME verse would be:
(To those) seeking a good name follow me and separate from you those parts that are cursed into the eonian purifying fire prepared for the false accuser and his messengers.
Yes, sinful man has the propensity to curse and call down harm upon other people, to condemn them. God does not. So, if you think Jesus is the perfect representation of who God is, then you should realize that the way you interpret the Matthew verse is at odds with that.
It says what it says and is consistent with the character of God who is not merely a God of love, but also a God of absolute righteousness and justice.
It says what it says and is consistent with the character of God who is not merely a God of love, but also a God of absolute righteousness and justice.
Do you understand that the righteous and just do not act that way ?.
But ignoring the mounds of evidence that questions the authenticity of the authorship and validity of the attributions to Christ IS. Despite the plentiful evidence of duplicity, political negotiation and agenda-driven compromise by MEN . . . you do not test the Spirit of what is attributed to Christ against the Spirit of Christ that He revealed and unambiguously demonstrated by His life and most especially His death by torture and crucifixion!!! He smote no one and even loved His torturers and murderers unto death. "No greater love . . ." The Spirit of Christ IS the Holy Spirit of God and it must be used to test the Spirit of anything attributed to Him by men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Let's take Matthew 25:41 specifically. Jesus spoke these words concerning Himself.
Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matthew 25:41 is found in Tatian's 'Diatessaron' which is perhaps the first gospel harmony. It is dated to A.D. 170-175 which means that Tatian used already existing manuscripts from which he copied. Matthew 25:41 is found in Section XLIII of the 'Diaessaron'. Here is the 'Diaessaron.' - Diatessaron. The Diatessaron (translation Roberts-Donaldson).
Now present all available evidence if you can to show that manuscript copies pre-existing A.D. 170 did not contain Matthew 25:41. Prove that Matthew 25:41 is not authentic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Most of your conclsions about Christ and our salvation are correct for the wrong reasons and oyur interpretations of what was said are in error. The main problem with most of your "precepts and doctrines of men", Mike is that they are translated and interpreted using the bias and corrupt understanding of God under the veil of ignorance over the OT. That makes the translations misleading. Let's take this one you seem so bent on misusing . . . Matthew 25:41. Let's look at the important part of the passage and see what it actually says in the Greek. Then we can compare it to what has been translated into English based on the existing "precepts and doctrines of men."
(ek) euōnymos poreuō apo kataraomai eis aiōnios pyr hetoimazō diabolos kai autos aggelos
The KJV:
(To those) on the left hand Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Now lets look at the possible meanings of the actual words used:
euōnymos = seeking a good name (Translated as: on the left hand)
poreuō = to follow: become his adherent (Translated as: Depart)
apo = separation of a part from the whole (Translated as: from me)
kataraomai = to curse, doom, imprecate evil upon (Translated as: ye cursed)
eis = on/into
aiōnios = eonian, of an eon (Translated as: everlasting)
pyr = (origin from pu meaning to purify) (Translated as fire)
hetoimazō = to make ready, prepare (Translated as: prepared for the)
diabolos = false accuser (Translated as: devil)
kai = and
autos = his
aggelos = messengers (Translated as: angels)
Do you see the obvious bias towards a punishing, vengeful OT God in the choice of translated words and context???
(To those) on the left hand Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Another way to read the SAME verse would be:
(To those) seeking a good name follow me and separate from you those parts that are cursed into the eonian purifying fire prepared for the false accuser and his messengers.
You were not asked to provide your interpretation of Matthew 25:41. You have been asked to produce something from your 'mounds of evidence' that Matthew 25:41 is not an authentic saying of Jesus. Are you able to provide such evidence?
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-15-2014 at 03:52 PM..
It says what it says and is consistent with the character of God who is not merely a God of love, but also a God of absolute righteousness and justice.
Essentially, every time you all say that God is love BUT God is also _____________ (fill in the blank), you're saying that God's various characteristics are at war with one another -- they contradict and are not in harmony with one another. And you don't see a problem with that.
God's "justice and righteousness" doesn't require people being tormented for eternity, because that would be contradictory with the fact that God is love. You all have transferred the blood-thirsty, vengeful, unforgiving nature of sinful man to your God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You were not asked to provide your interpretation of Matthew 25:41. You have been asked to produce something from your 'mounds of evidence' that Matthew 25:41 is not an authentic saying of Jesus. Are you able to provide such evidence?
Maybe I missed it. Where did Mystic say that there were mounds of evidence that Matt 25:41, specifically, is not an authentic saying?
Essentially, every time you all say that God is love BUT God is also _____________ (fill in the blank), you're saying that God's various characteristics are at war with one another -- they contradict and are not in harmony with one another. And you don't see a problem with that.
Before Adam's sin, man's point of contact with God was God's love. Since God's holiness had not been offended God was free to have a relationship with man. But sin was an offense to God's perfect righteousness which required God's justice to come into play. While God still loved Adam, His justice had to condemn Adam.
God's holiness consists of His perfect righteousness and perfect justice. His righteousness is the principle of His holiness while His justice is the function of His holiness. What God's righteousness approves of His justice must bless. What His righteousness disapproves of His justice must condemn. It is a fact that God had to condemn Adam when he sinned despite His love for Adam. But because of His love for Adam, and for the entire human race which would follow Adam and which was seminally in Adam, God was motivated to provide salvation in a way which would not compromise His holiness. This involved the Second Person of the Trinity becoming a man (while still being God) and going to the cross as a man to die for the sins of the world. When anyone receives Christ as Savior God imputes His own perfect righteousness to him and pronounces him justified. Anyone who does not receive Christ as Savior remains under condemnation.
Quote:
God's "justice and righteousness" doesn't require people being tormented for eternity, because that would be contradictory with the fact that God is love. You all have transferred the blood-thirsty, vengeful, unforgiving nature of sinful man to your God.
The essence of condemnation is separation or alienation from God - having no relationship with God. Those who die without having received Christ as Savior will forever exist without relationship with God. The place where they will exist is called the lake of fire. Whatever the precise nature of that place is, it is where all whose names are not found in the book of life will exist forever. Since eternal life is not only duration, but quality of life in relationship with God, those who are eternally separated or alienated from God will have no quality of life. And they will suffer and be in torment.
Quote:
Maybe I missed it. Where did Mystic say that there were mounds of evidence that Matt 25:41, specifically, is not an authentic saying?
Go back to post #87, read it all and see if you can figure it out.
And if you disagree with any or all of what I've said, then you disagree. That's your choice and isn't my concern.
Quoting what Jesus Himself said is not accusing Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Let's take Matthew 25:41 specifically. Jesus spoke these words concerning Himself.
Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Prove that Matthew 25:41 is not authentic.
The Scriptures teach that of compassion and a redeeming love.
Jesus said, love your enemies, do what is good, right and correct, expecting nothing in return.
And your reward will be great for you are the children of the Most High.
He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." Luke 6:36
Matthew 25:41-46 cannot stand in the face of that as noted above, based on your understanding:
“God makes sure the offender will never die, as he will endure an eternity of pain and suffering; screaming for mercy, but finding none."
This depicts a God who, according to the doctrines of men, is unable to use a speck of his power, mercy and love to redeem a flawed human
being of his own creation? And you call that justice? I call it a false accusation, predicated on your comprehendion of the Lake of fire.
The Scriptures teach that of compassion and a redeeming love.
Jesus said, love your enemies, do what is good, right and correct, expecting nothing in return.
And your reward will be great for you are the children of the Most High.
He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." Luke 6:36
Matthew 25:41-46 cannot stand in the face of that as noted above, based on your understanding:
“God makes sure the offender will never die, as he will endure an eternity of pain and suffering; screaming for mercy, but finding none."
This depicts a God who, according to the doctrines of men, is unable to use a speck of his power, mercy and love to redeem a flawed human
being of his own creation? And you call that justice? I call it a false accusation, predicated on your comprehendion of the Lake of fire.
God gave man volition to choose for or against Him and allows him his choice and holds him responsible for that choice. It's that simple.
God gave man volition to choose for or against Him and allows him his choice and holds him responsible for that choice. It's that simple.
The only thing complicated is what man has been taught to believe?
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