Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Let's take Matthew 25:41 specifically. Jesus spoke these words concerning Himself.
Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matthew 25:41 is found in Tatian's 'Diatessaron' which is perhaps the first gospel harmony. It is dated to A.D. 170-175 which means that Tatian used already existing manuscripts from which he copied. Matthew 25:41 is found in Section XLIII of the 'Diaessaron'. Here is the 'Diaessaron.' - Diatessaron. The Diatessaron (translation Roberts-Donaldson).
Now present all available evidence which shows that manuscript copies pre-existing A.D. 170 did not contain Matthew 25:41. Prove that Matthew 25:41 is not authentic.
According to your bible, it's not right to curse people:
...but no one can tame the tongue. It is restless and evil, full of deadly poison.
Sometimes it praises our Lord and Father, and sometimes it curses those made in the image of God.
And so blessing and cursing come pouring out of the same mouth. Surely, my brothers and sisters, this is not right!
So, this is another one of those biblical contradictions. Jesus supposedly cursing people, but cursing people "is not right" because it is poison.
According to your bible, it's not right to curse people:
...but no one can tame the tongue. It is restless and evil, full of deadly poison.
Sometimes it praises our Lord and Father, and sometimes it curses those made in the image of God.
And so blessing and cursing come pouring out of the same mouth. Surely, my brothers and sisters, this is not right!
So, this is another one of those biblical contradictions. Jesus supposedly cursing people, but cursing people "is not right" because it is poison.
There is no contradiction. The accursed ones are those under the curse of the Law due to disobeying it. All who do not receive Christ as Savior are under condemnation (John 3:18).
The burden is on MysticPhD to show that Matthew 25:41 is not authentic based on the evidence he says exists which questions the authenticity of such verses.
There is no contradiction. The accursed ones are those under the curse of the Law due to disobeying it. All who do not receive Christ as Savior are under condemnation (John 3:18).
Well, I see the contradiction, even if you don't. According to Strong's concordance, the word curse in both passages means: to curse, doom, imprecate evil upon
The way you are interpreting that passage, Jesus is supposedly dooming and calling down harm upon people, people made in the image of God. That's poison. If that's what Jesus is capable of, then he's no Savior. And he's not doing what is right.
According to your bible, it's not right to curse people:
...but no one can tame the tongue. It is restless and evil, full of deadly poison.
Sometimes it praises our Lord and Father, and sometimes it curses those made in the image of God.
And so blessing and cursing come pouring out of the same mouth. Surely, my brothers and sisters, this is not right!
So, this is another one of those biblical contradictions. Jesus supposedly cursing people, but cursing people "is not right" because it is poison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
There is no contradiction. The accursed ones are those under the curse of the Law due to disobeying it. All who do not receive Christ as Savior are under condemnation (John 3:18).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Well, I see the contradiction, even if you don't. According to Strong's concordance, the word curse in both passages means: to curse, doom, imprecate evil upon
The way you are interpreting that passage, Jesus is supposedly dooming and calling down harm upon people, people made in the image of God. That's poison. If that's what Jesus is capable of, then he's no Savior. And he's not doing what is right.
Those who are vested in the "precepts and doctrines of men" are blind to contradictions, Pleroo. They cannot allow ANY to exist and they cannot allow themselves to believe that mere men could NOT be inerrant or infallible. They refuse to contemplate deliberate editing and fabrication within the "precepts and doctrines of men" to further specific agendas. Discovering the actual historical development and provenance of the Bible used today is as disturbing as watching sausage being made!!!
It was Jesus Himself who stated that He Himself will order into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels those who are going there, and that their punishment will be forever . It was Matthew who under the filling and guidance of the Holy Spirit accurately recorded what Jesus said in Matthew 25:41,46.
It was Jesus who gave the Revelation to John in which He [Jesus] revealed that at the great white throne judgment after the Millennium all whose names are not in the book of life will be sent into the lake of fire.
The existence of the place described as the lake of fire is a reality. It will be the place where those who have rejected God's plan of salvation will exist throughout the eternal future. So says God as revealed in His Word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
Why do people keep accusing Christ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Quoting what Jesus Himself said is not accusing Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
But ignoring the mounds of evidence that questions the authenticity of the authorship and validity of the attributions to Christ IS. Despite the plentiful evidence of duplicity, political negotiation and agenda-driven compromise by MEN . . . you do not test the Spirit of what is attributed to Christ against the Spirit of Christ that He revealed and unambiguously demonstrated by His life and most especially His death by torture and crucifixion!!! He smote no one and even loved His torturers and murderers unto death. "No greater love . . ." The Spirit of Christ IS the Holy Spirit of God and it must be used to test the Spirit of anything attributed to Him by men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Let's take Matthew 25:41 specifically. Jesus spoke these words concerning Himself.
Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matthew 25:41 is found in Tatian's 'Diatessaron' which is perhaps the first gospel harmony. It is dated to A.D. 170-175 which means that Tatian used already existing manuscripts from which he copied. Matthew 25:41 is found in Section XLIII of the 'Diaessaron'. Here is the 'Diaessaron.' - Diatessaron. The Diatessaron (translation Roberts-Donaldson).
Now present all available evidence if you can to show that manuscript copies pre-existing A.D. 170 did not contain Matthew 25:41. Prove that Matthew 25:41 is not authentic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
According to your bible, it's not right to curse people:
...but no one can tame the tongue. It is restless and evil, full of deadly poison.
Sometimes it praises our Lord and Father, and sometimes it curses those made in the image of God.
And so blessing and cursing come pouring out of the same mouth. Surely, my brothers and sisters, this is not right!
So, this is another one of those biblical contradictions. Jesus supposedly cursing people, but cursing people "is not right" because it is poison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
There is no contradiction. The accursed ones are those under the curse of the Law due to disobeying it. All who do not receive Christ as Savior are under condemnation (John 3:18).
The burden is on MysticPhD to show that Matthew 25:41 is not authentic based on the evidence he says exists which questions the authenticity of such verses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Well, I see the contradiction, even if you don't. According to Strong's concordance, the word curse in both passages means: to curse, doom, imprecate evil upon
The way you are interpreting that passage, Jesus is supposedly dooming and calling down harm upon people, people made in the image of God. That's poison. If that's what Jesus is capable of, then he's no Savior. And he's not doing what is right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Those who are vested in the "precepts and doctrines of men" are blind to contradictions, Pleroo. They cannot allow ANY to exist and they cannot allow themselves to believe that mere men could NOT be inerrant or infallible. They refuse to contemplate deliberate editing and fabrication within the "precepts and doctrines of men" to further specific agendas. Discovering the actual historical development and provenance of the Bible used today is as disturbing as watching sausage being made!!!
James 3:8-9 is talking about controlling the tongue. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of mankind being under condemnation because of sin.
Produce something from the 'mounds of evidence' you claim exists to prove that Matthew 25:41 is not an authentic saying of Jesus.
Last edited by Michael Way; 05-15-2014 at 12:21 PM..
Well, I see the contradiction, even if you don't. According to Strong's concordance, the word curse in both passages means: to curse, doom, imprecate evil upon
The way you are interpreting that passage, Jesus is supposedly dooming and calling down harm upon people, people made in the image of God. That's poison. If that's what Jesus is capable of, then he's no Savior. And he's not doing what is right.
Correct, i would be a greater savior for showing mercy to them instead of literally throwing them in the lake of fire that the fundamentalists believe they are saved from.
If only they could comprehend that mercy triumphs over justice, unfortunately they believe Jesus throwing you in the literal lake of fire is merciful to those who end up in there.
James 3:8-9 is talking about controlling the tongue. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of mankind being under condemnation because of sin.
Mike, yes, in the context of controlling the tongue, this passage is talking about cursing (calling down harm upon) people (who are made in the image of God).
Now, how is commanding people to go into a burning fire for all eternity (as you believe the passage is saying) not calling down harm upon them? At least the universalists believe that the metaphorical "age-during fire" is, indeed, for the purpose of the good of people who go into it. But as you interpret and understand it, it's eternal destruction and condemnation with no way out.
Produce something from the 'mounds of evidence' you claim exists to prove that Matthew 25:41 is not an authentic saying of Jesus.
You edited this after I responded. Originally you were asking Mystic, not me. But since you've now included me I'll respond by saying ... No, I won't. I didn't say it's not an authentic saying. I have no way of knowing if it is or not. What I do know is that the way in which you interpret and understand it is not reconcilable with the nature of a God who is love, nor with the belief that Jesus is the Savior of the world, nor with the passage in James.
Mike, yes, in the context of controlling the tongue, this passage is talking about cursing (calling down harm upon) people (who are made in the image of God).
Now, how is commanding people to go into a burning fire for all eternity (as you believe the passage is saying) not calling down harm upon them? At least the universalists believe that the metaphorical "age-during fire" is, indeed, for the purpose of the good of people who go into it. But as you interpret and understand it, it's eternal destruction and condemnation with no way out.
How is that not poison, Mike?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
You edited this after I responded. Originally you were asking Mystic, not me. But since you've now included me I'll respond by saying ... No, I won't. I didn't say it's not an authentic saying. I have no way of knowing if it is or not. What I do know is that the way in which you interpret and understand it is not reconcilable with the nature of a God who is love, nor with the belief that Jesus is the Savior of the world, nor with the passage in James.
It was not my intention to ask you. Your post was included because of MysticPhD's reply to you, instead of to me. He must produce from his 'mounds of evidence' proof that Matthew 25:41 is not an authentic saying of Jesus.
James 3:8-9 is addressed to sinful man about the need to control the tongue. It is not directed at the sinless Son of God who will judge all mankind.
God's love did not, and could not prevent Him from having to condemn Adam when he sinned. Nor can God's love prevent Him from having to leave in condemnation all who do not avail themselves of His plan of salvation.
It was not my intention to ask you. Your post was included because of MysticPhD's reply to you, instead of to me. He must produce from his 'mounds of evidence' proof that Matthew 25:41 is not an authentic saying of Jesus.
Okay, sorry I misunderstood.
Quote:
James 3:8-9
Quote:
is addressed to sinful man about the need to control the tongue. It is not directed at the sinless Son of God who will judge all mankind.
God's love did not, and could not prevent Him from having to condemn Adam when he sinned. Nor can God's love prevent Him from having to leave in condemnation all who do not avail themselves of His plan of salvation.
Yes, sinful man has the propensity to curse and call down harm upon other people, to condemn them. God does not. So, if you think Jesus is the perfect representation of who God is, then you should realize that the way you interpret the Matthew verse is at odds with that.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
