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I ask this question because it became part of our discussion in Sunday school about two weeks ago when a sister asked us to pray for a church member who attends another church. She said that the members at the church wanted that person to stop down from his church office position because, they felt that he was sinning by changing his sex.
For me, in my opinion, if the person is born looking like a male, but has two x chromosomes or born looking female and have an x and y chromosome, then I don't think that person has sinned if on the inside he or she is not the sex people see on the outside.
What are your comments?
No comment but a question:
Is everyone else at the church sinless? Since they want this man to,ahem, "step down" (that's the secret code for Toss Out) they must be remarkable people themselves and free of sin. In which case I do have a comment: alert the media.
If you believe in sin, everybody sins including you. All sins are created equal. I don't understand why some Christians feel the need to chastise anyone who is different. What does your god say about gossiping and judging?
Is having the testicles removed due to, say, testicular cancer, a sin?
Is getting a tattoo a sin?
Is piercing the ears a sin?
Is getting a breast implant a sin?
Most people would say no, even Christians. We permanently modify our bodies all the time and no one really thinks about sinning when they do. No one is going to say, "No, doctor, I want to keep my gangrenous leg because changing my body is a sin!"
No, the ONLY reason why some people see transgenderedness and sexual reassignment surgery as "sins" is because of all of the stupid insecurities people have about sex and gender roles. I really don't understand why so many people have these tightazzed hang-ups about this stuff, but they do. And it's all on THEM to deal with it instead of forcing everyone else to abide by their need not to feel uncomfortable.
Religion, God, the Bible, and sin has absolutely -nothing- to do with it.
It's all about people using religion to justify fascism to keep others from contaminating their safe and cozy little comfort zones.
I understand that you're an atheist and this is your viewpoint. Fair enough. But since this question was posed in the Christianity Forum, "Religion, God, the Bible and sin" have everything to do with it. If this question were posed in the atheist forum, then the context of the question would be posed towards atheistic beliefs. The responses expected there would be, "There is no God and no sin so do what you want. It's your life." But, since this is being asked in the Christian forum, the context of the question logically concludes that God and the scriptures be considered in the responses.
You said "Most people would say no," to the items you listed being sin or not. I agree with you that many (I don't know about "most") people would not consider a sex-change (as well as the other NON-medically necessary procedures) a sin. We live in a world that becomes more humanistic each day. However, it's not people who determine what sin is. If it were, nothing would be sinful because people are rebellious and want to do whatever they want to do.
But it's God who has already declared what sin is and isn't. That's why so many rebel against God because they don't want to be told what to do. Sin is determined by God's standards so, sin has everything to do with God and the scriptures. That's just simple logic.
And the scriptures have a lot to say about appropriate sexual and gender behavior. Nowhere in the Bible does it mention that a person's gender is negotiable or optional. Scriptures affirm and give value to both genders. And from everything the scriptures have to say about gender and sexuality, it's completely safe to assess that gender distortion and reassignment is not a biblically acceptable practice.
So yes. A sex change operation is a sin. It's also true that there are people who are born with physical gender defects where there are a mix of male and female organs. Those aren't "God's mistakes" but evidence that we live in a world that's been deeply affected and marred by sin. Is a sex change operation a sin in these cases? Well, I don't see that a person's gender is being changed when both male and female organs already exist. In these cases I wouldn't dare presume to know the answer. I leave that in God's hands.
And the scriptures have a lot to say about appropriate sexual and gender behavior. Nowhere in the Bible does it mention that a person's gender is negotiable or optional. Scriptures affirm and give value to both genders. And from everything the scriptures have to say about gender and sexuality, it's completely safe to assess that gender distortion and reassignment is not a biblically acceptable practice.
Yes, but nowhere in the bible does it say that it's not. Therefore, if it is indeed a sin in the eyes of god, we must determine that for ourselves by interpreting the scripture. Am I correct so far?
And if I'm correct in that, then I'm still not seeing where the scripture is clear that this is a sin. "Male and female he created them" is about the closest thing I can find, and if that's the best there is, I think it's a bit of a stretch to conclude that it's a sin to change your gender.
Genesis also says “And god said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness he called night" - but that doesn't mean it's a sin to turn on the lights in your home at night, does it? This passage clearly suggests that god wanted to keep day and night separate and distinct from each other, so is it a biblically acceptable practice to turn on a light at night?
Again, I am not asking these questions to agitate anyone. These are serious and sincere questions. When you say "from everything the scriptures have to say about gender and sexuality, it's completely safe to assume that gender distortion and reassignment is not a biblically acceptable practice,' what scripture supports that assumption? Because I just don't see where the issue is even addressed, to be honest with you.
I have a friend whose daughter was having female issues. Her doctors discovered it was because she is genetically male - with X and Y chromosomes. Externally, she appears in every way to be a woman - and a feminine and attractive one that that. But her internal reproductive organs are gonads and not ovaries. She feels like a woman.
So, what would those of you who assert that gender reassignment surgery is a "sin," what is this person? If the outside of her body had been what looked male while on the inside she still felt female (as she does now), would that make a difference?
There is so much that we don't understand about why some individuals are one gender while their bodies appear to be a different gender. Perhaps is it a "defect." Perhaps it is an absorbed twin. Perhaps it is something that goes awry hormonally in utero.
But who are you make a blanket statement about gender if you clearly have no education or experience in the matter? Must be terribly comfortable to sit back in your armchair and make official-sounding pronouncements condemning others when you understand nothing of the science or the struggle. Doesn't sound very Christlike to me. Just sounds like hateful judgment.
Yes, but nowhere in the bible does it say that it's not.
Yes, and I addressed that. The Bible does have a lot to say about sexuality and gender behavior.
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Therefore, if it is indeed a sin in the eyes of god, we must determine that for ourselves by interpreting the scripture. Am I correct so far?
No. Because, as I said in my post, people don't determine what sin is. God does. Christianity is all about Him. It's His. He came up with it. He decides. We are His followers so we follow Him and what He says.
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And if I'm correct in that, (But you're not.)then I'm still not seeing where the scripture is clear that this is a sin. "Male and female he created them" is about the closest thing I can find, and if that's the best there is, I think it's a bit of a stretch to conclude that it's a sin to change your gender.
I already covered that when I when I said that the Bible speaks clearly, and often, about sexuality and gender roles.
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Genesis also says “And god said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness he called night" - but that doesn't mean it's a sin to turn on the lights in your home at night, does it? This passage clearly suggests that god wanted to keep day and night separate and distinct from each other, so is it a biblically acceptable practice to turn on a light at night?
So, you're equating sexuality and gender to flipping a light switch? That's a convenient (and illogical and irrelevant) stretch.
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Again, I am not asking these questions to agitate anyone. These are serious and sincere questions. When you say "from everything the scriptures have to say about gender and sexuality, it's completely safe to assume that gender distortion and reassignment is not a biblically acceptable practice,' what scripture supports that assumption? Because I just don't see where the issue is even addressed, to be honest with you.
I'm not agitated by your questions at all. There's nothing wrong with asking questions. The thing is, you don't like what I'm saying so you're countering it with YOUR opinions, YOUR understanding, and the way YOU want it to be instead of seeking GOD for HIS ways and HIS understanding. You're not giving facts, you're trying to justify it. YOU want to determine FOR YOURSELF what sin is and you're ignoring what God has to say in His word. You've gone so far as to twist the meanings of scripture to your own personal bias. (Creation versus turning on a light switch.)
The things I've said are all rooted in the scriptures and in context with the whole of the scriptures.
Are you free to have a sex change operation? Absolutely. You do have that choice. But choices come with consequences and we own those, too. In this case, the ultimate consequence is whether or not it's a sin. If YOU get to define sin, then no, it's not. When sin is defined by people, then WHO gets to define it? People don't tend to agree on things so which person is holier and more qualified to define what sin is for EVERYONE? No one is. Only God. You can justify your way out of, or into, anything. But, if you're really looking for the truth, then you must look to God and His word.
I have a friend whose daughter was having female issues. Her doctors discovered it was because she is genetically male - with X and Y chromosomes. Externally, she appears in every way to be a woman - and a feminine and attractive one that that. But her internal reproductive organs are gonads and not ovaries. She feels like a woman.
So, what would those of you who assert that gender reassignment surgery is a "sin," what is this person? If the outside of her body had been what looked male while on the inside she still felt female (as she does now), would that make a difference?
There is so much that we don't understand about why some individuals are one gender while their bodies appear to be a different gender. Perhaps is it a "defect." Perhaps it is an absorbed twin. Perhaps it is something that goes awry hormonally in utero.
I've addressed this in my first post.
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But who are you make a blanket statement about gender if you clearly have no education or experience in the matter? Must be terribly comfortable to sit back in your armchair and make official-sounding pronouncements condemning others when you understand nothing of the science or the struggle. Doesn't sound very Christlike to me. Just sounds like hateful judgment.
How easy it is throw the word "hateful" and "judgmental" around when someone says something you don't like. Where was I hateful? Where was I judgmental? Everything I said is based in the scriptures.
How do you know what I know, struggle with, am educated in or anything else? THAT'S a blanket judgment of hate made by you. It's also hypocrisy because you're doing the very thing that you're accusing me of. And you're putting words and attitudes in my mouth that aren't there.
The hate and judgmental attitude here are coming from you towards me. I wasn't rude. I can back up everything I've said in the scriptures. You're speaking solely out of your own opinion.
With your opinions, why even ask if it's sin if you didn't want to know what the Bible says about it?
I didn't ask if it's a sin because I consider that to be a ridiculous question.
But you certainly didn't find anything to support your case in the Bible. It isn't there because they had no way of 1) understanding that a person's gender might not be indicated by their appearance, or 2) reassigning gender. So you're singing it and judging it to be a sin.
My point was that a body's visible or invisible parts do not determine gender (and that's backed by evidence - not my opinion). If we were going with your gender behavior argument, then the person who is a certain gender (regardless of outward appearance) could still behave appropriately for that gender - before, during, or after the time the body was being fixed to match the person's actual gender.
Your entire argument rejects the idea that a person can be of a gender that the body does not indicate. You declare something to be a sin with no biblical support - just your point of view on how gender operates. You have not put forth any scientific evidence or experience to support what you have asserted. "You're speaking solely out of your own opinion. That's judgmental. " It's hateful to condemn someone to live in a body that does not have the parts to match the correct gender and to make that person feel guilty about having been born in a very difficult situation.
The sin of sex is the lust and abuse of body which attracts demons which will take spiritual authority over the people , which God will give the celestial demon spirit ....Repentance and resisting sex will give God more Spiritual authority over the person life
Whew, my computer clock still says it's 2014. For a minute there, I thought this latest storm hurtled me back to the Dark Ages.
I ask this question because it became part of our discussion in Sunday school about two weeks ago when a sister asked us to pray for a church member who attends another church. She said that the members at the church wanted that person to stop down from his church office position because, they felt that he was sinning by changing his sex.
For me, in my opinion, if the person is born looking like a male, but has two x chromosomes or born looking female and have an x and y chromosome, then I don't think that person has sinned if on the inside he or she is not the sex people see on the outside.
What are your comments?
I certainly don't think so.
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