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I think God simply would want us to be caring toward those who are in need, and to not provoke or start wars, which kill so many of his "offspring."
I don't think God is so petty, so tiny, so shallow, so superficial, so worried about the insignificant things of life, while huge things are going on (such as the murder of thousands by war).
The question on this thread is... is having a sex change a sin. I said yes. That's all.
God is holy and any sin is a big deal. So big that He took it upon Himself to send His Son to be the sacrifice for all sin. Sin is not insignificant to God.
Nowhere in the Bible does it mention that a person's gender is negotiable or optional.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that sexual reassignment surgery is a sin. I'm sure people have used typical "pretzel logic" on a verse here and there to twist it in order to make it kinda-sorta-maybe say something vague and ambiguous about the horrible evils of being transgendered, but it's bogus.
I reiterate what I said before. Yes, I don't doubt that Christians take scripture into account when they go on a rampage against sin, but you need to look at your own religion with bigger eyes and ask yourself, "WHY are certain sins crusaded against non-stop while others are pretty much accepted?"
I've asked this a hundred times: Why has there been a HUGE crusade by conservative religion to kick homosexuals completely out of society - but adulterers can divorce their spouses and remarry to their lovers without so much as a "Hey!" shouted in protest.
But no, it's WORSE than that.
How many Christians pushed to prevent divorced wife-beaters from remarrying? Or better yet, anyone who has a history of beating the snot out of even their girlfriend/boyfriend. In fact, Christians don't seem to care if spouse-murderers, rapists, or even pedophiles get married. For crying out loud, we ban animal abusers from owning a pet, but Christians just can't bring themselves to saying, in the political arena, that acts of violence against lovers and spouses aren't enough to warrant a marriage ban.
Then you have the Bible itself that has the founder of Judaism, Abraham himself, having multiple wives and sexing up both of them - and harems were common and certainly not a sin. Incest is talked about prominently no less than three separate times without a single condemnation or declaration from God that fathers screwing their daughters is a sin (but hey, what do you expect when one of God's paragons of virtue, Lot, thought nothing of tossing his two virgin daughters to a crowd of ravenous sex fiends). And pedophilia ... heh, that's not even -mentioned- in the Bible because everyone knows that taking child-brides and consumating the marriage the minute puberty hits was as common as sand in the desert.
The fact that Christians are notorious for inconsistently applying their notion of sin onto the whole of society, not to mention the twisted ideas of marriage and sex within the Bible itself, makes the Christian outcry against the LGBT community nothing but a joke.
The ONLY way this bizarre fixation on gays and transgendered makes any sense at all is if the root cause is simple hatred and bigotry. The scriptures are just lucky conveniences - tools to justify hatred in the shape of a cross. Take away the Bible and religion altogether - as if they never existed - and you folks STILL would hate LGBT folks and would do whatever you could to ostracize them from mainstream society. The Bible doesn't tell you to bully gays, to discriminate against them, to harass them, or to vandalize their property. But, I suppose those things are all you can do since secular law prevents you from doing what the Bible -really- tells you to do: Kill them.
I have no idea what you think personally - maybe you truly do see things only in terms of scripture - but that's not any better. It doesn't save you from criticism and scorn from this side of the religious divide. Because hating on the LGBT community because the Bible says you should is just using the Nuremburg Defense - I was just following orders.
You can't be a moral agent if all you're doing is blindly following a set of rules. A computer can do that. Does that make a computer moral when it carries out its instructions in a blind, unthinking way? The same question can be said of those who shut off their brains when analyzing Bronze Age morality - because there's a lot of despicable nonsense in those pages. People often fail to understand that "goodness" and "righteousness" can become so extreme that it literally comes full circle back to being evil. Certain Christians and their fundamentalist pals have their feet planted firmly on that path.
Think about it, don't just dismiss it as, "Oh, why should I listen to a heathen atheist anyway!!"
You just said cosmetic surgery is a sin... you should have stopped there.
God doesn't like cross-dressing...
Deuteronomy 22:5 - "A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.
I don't think He would be pleased with a sex change.
According to that stupid law, God wouldn't be pleased with a woman wearing pants. Of course, this one ranks right up there with being told by God himself to put tassles on the four corners of your cloak. This kind of banality thrown about by an all-powerful God is like reading a self-parody.
When was the last time you bothered looking at the calendar? Or a woman, for that matter ...
The question on this thread is... is having a sex change a sin. I said yes. That's all.
God is holy and any sin is a big deal. So big that He took it upon Himself to send His Son to be the sacrifice for all sin. Sin is not insignificant to God.
Yes, perhaps.
However, I've noticed that it's certain humans that take it upon themselves to pick and choose which "sins" they think God considers the worst, and they almost always have to do with sex, and with women getting "uppity."
According to that stupid law, God wouldn't be pleased with a woman wearing pants. Of course, this one ranks right up there with being told by God himself to put tassles on the four corners of your cloak. This kind of banality thrown about by an all-powerful God is like reading a self-parody.
When was the last time you bothered looking at the calendar? Or a woman, for that matter ...
You can't extrapolate that verse to a woman wearing pants today. There are pants made for women.
The spirit behind that verse is that a man should not make himself look like a woman, and vice versa. This is not difficult.
However, I've noticed that it's certain humans that take it upon themselves to pick and choose which "sins" they think God considers the worst, and they almost always have to do with sex, and with women getting "uppity."
There is also the fact that people throw sexual issues of sins at Christians to stir the pot. Then when we answer as they expect, they are offended - even though they already knew how we would respond.
Most Christians will say that all sins are bad.
I appreciate your tone in discussing this - so I will go further.
In the Bible, sexual sins are different than other sins (stealing, gossip, etc.)
Romans 1:27 - and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
1 Corinthians 6:18 - Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.
The Romans verse is pointing towards homosexuality - but still a sexual issue. What I am saying is that a possible reason sexual issues get more attention than other sins is because sexual sins affect the people at a deep level.
In other words, when you steal or murder or gossip, you are hurting someone else. Those sins are outside of our bodies. Sexual sins mess us up internally in our spirits. So now when speaking against homosexuality, or changing one's gender - there is a personal attack also interpreted on those who commit those sins. Therefore, those discussion are much more energized.
Yes, and I addressed that. The Bible does have a lot to say about sexuality and gender behavior.
Well, actually, no... you didn't. Not very specifically, anyway.
Let's backtrack a little bit, and clarify the terms of the discussion. You said -
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Nowhere in the Bible does it mention that a person's gender is negotiable or optional.
I replied -
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Yes, but nowhere in the bible does it say that it's not.
Now you say, "and I addressed that." So. That's where we are, right?
I'm saying that I don't see anything in the bible that addresses the issue of gender change. You're saying there is a considerable amount of scripture covering that issue, but you're not telling me what that scripture is. So let me put it to you in the form of a question - where, exactly, does the bible say that gender change surgery is a sin?
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Originally Posted by plain and simple
No. Because, as I said in my post, people don't determine what sin is. God does. Christianity is all about Him. It's His. He came up with it. He decides. We are His followers so we follow Him and what He says.
Good. That'll make it even easier to clear up, then. Just point me to the relevant, unambiguous scripture. Remember, it can't be your interpretation of the scripture - it has to be the word of god himself, because as you have said several times now, it is not for man to interpret what is and is not a sin. God tells us directly. So I will need to see some clear and unambiguous language.
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Originally Posted by plain and simple
I already covered that when I when I said that the Bible speaks clearly, and often, about sexuality and gender roles.
Excellent! I eagerly await the clear and unambiguous quotes that make it obvious that gender change is a sin.
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Originally Posted by plain and simple
So, you're equating sexuality and gender to flipping a light switch? That's a convenient (and illogical and irrelevant) stretch.
Is it? Explain how. What's the difference?
You're saying that the reason changing genders is a sin is because the bible says god wanted there to be a difference between men and women - and to go against his intentions by changing genders is a sin. Right?
So explain to me the difference. According to Genesis, god clearly wanted there to be a difference between night and day. The bible is very specific about that. If you turn on your lights when the sun goes down, you are interfering with god's intention to separate day and night. Now, I suppose the first thing you're going to shout out is that "the difference is obvious," but that works to your advantage, because then it will be that much easier for you to explain. Why is one a sin, but the other is not?
What is it about changing gender that makes it such a grievous offense? Why are "sins" having to do with gender and sexuality so important to some Christians? Does god have separate categories of sins? Are sins relating to gender and sexuality ranked higher up on his list, or something? Because those always seem to be the ones that get fundamentalists more upset than just about anything else I can think of off the top of my head. Can you explain why that is?
I understand that you think this is a silly argument, and that these are silly questions, and perhaps from your point of view that's the only logical conclusion to draw. I suspect it's because that to you, as a Christian - in the context of your faith - the issues and the answers are self-evident. But to someone outside your faith, there's nothing silly about it at all. In this forum alone, we currently have Christians claiming that it's an affront to god (and possibly a sin) to use the expression "good luck," and others claiming it's a sin to masturbate because during those moments you're thinking unclean thoughts, rather than honoring god. Can you even begin to imagine how ludicrously silly a serious discussion on those issues seems to a non-Christian?
In an environment in which those are considered serious discussion topics, I don't think any question is too silly to ask, because clearly, we have crossed into some sort of parallel universe where concepts such as "logic" and "silly" have lost their meaning entirely. In that environment, the question about whether it's a sin to turn on a light suddenly makes perfect sense - or at least, is no longer too silly for a non-Christian to consider. I'm just trying to find some way to make sense out of something that makes absolutely no sense at all.
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Originally Posted by plain and simple
I'm not agitated by your questions at all. There's nothing wrong with asking questions. The thing is, you don't like what I'm saying so you're countering it with YOUR opinions, YOUR understanding, and the way YOU want it to be instead of seeking GOD for HIS ways and HIS understanding. You're not giving facts, you're trying to justify it. YOU want to determine FOR YOURSELF what sin is and you're ignoring what God has to say in His word.
Perhaps this would be a more productive discussion for both of us if you focused a little more on the topic and the questions I'm asking, rather than your assumptions of what my true motives and agenda are. These assumptions seem to be steering us into the ditch. What I'm doing (and all that I'm doing) is simply asking questions in a sincere attempt to better understand your religion. Obviously these questions make you uncomfortable, as evidenced by your reluctance to answer them and your attempts to detour around them by changing the focus of the discussion to me and what I'm really trying to accomplish, but I'm not sure yet what it is that makes you uncomfortable - the fact that you don't want to hear them, or the fact that you don't seem to be able to answer them.
As for whether I "like what you're saying.." I can't even imagine what difference that makes. I don't have an opinion one way or the other on whether I "like" what you're saying; the thought of it never entered my mind until you brought it up. Is there a reason that's important? I'm just trying to get information and get some questions answered; what's to like or not like?
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Originally Posted by plain and simple
You've gone so far as to twist the meanings of scripture to your own personal bias. (Creation versus turning on a light switch.)
Sorry, not twisting a thing. Just looking for an explanation as to why one is a sin and the other is not, when according to your position both of them contravene god's obvious intent.
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Originally Posted by plain and simple
Are you free to have a sex change operation? Absolutely. You do have that choice. But choices come with consequences and we own those, too. In this case, the ultimate consequence is whether or not it's a sin. If YOU get to define sin, then no, it's not. When sin is defined by people, then WHO gets to define it? People don't tend to agree on things so which person is holier and more qualified to define what sin is for EVERYONE? No one is. Only God. You can justify your way out of, or into, anything. But, if you're really looking for the truth, then you must look to God and His word.
Great. We're back to god's word again. I'll ask again - what is god's word on gender change? Specifically, what scripture addresses that? Because as you said, there's no interpretation involved at all here. It's simply a matter of god speaking directly and unambiguously as to what his wishes and expectations are. So his word on this should be clear, right? Where exactly is that clear scripture?
According to that stupid law, God wouldn't be pleased with a woman wearing pants. Of course, this one ranks right up there with being told by God himself to put tassles on the four corners of your cloak. This kind of banality thrown about by an all-powerful God is like reading a self-parody.
When was the last time you bothered looking at the calendar? Or a woman, for that matter ...
Actually thats not a law. It is however a widely used verse for Modesty standards. I do believe God isnt pleased with women wearing pants but thats based on my personal belief and type of church i go to.
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Is having a sex change a sin? I believe it is wrong in Gods eyes. Not because of the above verse but because similar to someone posted earlier in this thread- We are made in Gods image. He made the male and he made the female perfectly. He made each of us. It IS like slapping his face and saying " you dont know what youre doing".
Actually thats not a law. It is however a widely used verse for Modesty standards. I do believe God isnt pleased with women wearing pants but thats based on my personal belief and type of church i go to.
Yes, it's a Law.
Deuteronomy 22:5
“A woman shall not wear man’s clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God."
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Originally Posted by Ohky0815
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Is having a sex change a sin? I believe it is wrong in Gods eyes. Not because of the above verse but because similar to someone posted earlier in this thread- We are made in Gods image. He made the male and he made the female perfectly. He made each of us. It IS like slapping his face and saying " you dont know what youre doing".
So what about people who are born intersexed? They are not 'made perfectly' as male or female. About 1 in 2000 people are born intersexed.
So, you think it is sinning. OK. What Bible verse do you use as a basis for that opinion? I'm not arguing with you. I'm just curious what your supporting documentation is.
Matthew 19:4-6
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
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