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The Septuagint is the LXX = 70 Hebrew scholars were commissioned in about 285 bc to rewrite the Hebrew text into Greek.
No one spoke Hebrew in the days of Jesus - Greek was the language used by everyone.
John 1:1 is very easy to understand in Greek but confusing in English!!
1976 is when I began studying the bible in Greek. I was surprised at what a simple language it is. English is confusing as can be for a foreigner to learn and understand. Hebrew & Greek are picture languages with NO DOUBLE MEANINGS.
Surprise surprise you can't correctly spell Septuagint or surprise. I guess you were in too much of a rush to make your point(s).
Your points are well taken. Thank you for your advice.
When Matthew, Mark, Luke, John Paul; (& Ringo) quoted the Old Testament they were quoting from the GREEK!!!
The book of Revelation has only 404 verses but over 800 references to the Old Testament in Greek!!
Nope just a terrible speller, usually write it out first in word so I can use spell check, but when it is just a short point I sometimes just write directly to the forum.
Anyway if you looked it up in the Septuagint you saw that it did not say anything like this (below)
Isaiah 9:6 Unto us a child is born (Bethlehem) A Son is "given" (Golgotha) and HIS NAME SHALL BE.. The Mighty God - The Everlasting Father.... etc...
Seems to me the translators wanted to promote their belief in a trinity and hoped no one had a copy of the Septuagint.
No one spoke Hebrew in the days of Jesus - Greek was the language used by everyone.
The languages of that time period were Hebrew, Aramaic, and to an extent that of Greek.
So, you may not want to put all your eggs in one basket?
Especially, if you consider the multicultural and multilingual societies that existed.
And the fact that Jesus spoke and read from the Torah, even at the age of twelve?
Jesus in His glorified state today is still subject to the Father, His God.
Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
and He will be subject to Him when He delivers the kingdom up to the Father after all things have been made subject to Him. Jesus never says that He is equal to the Father. God bless.
I am the first & the last I am the alpha & Omega Ego Enmi the great I AM Jesus said that 7 times in John's Gospel.
I guess some people just can't understand simple language principles.
If Jesus wasn't God .. then He never would have made such ludicrous statements.
I take great offence when someone walks up to the King and slaps Him across the face and says YOU ARE NOT THE KING!
Before Abraham was ... .. EGO ENMI ! I AM!
The Pharisees understood very plainly what Jesus said and they took up stones to stone HIM for BLASPHEMY.
thou being a "man" makest thy self GOD! That is what is written in my bible in John 10:33
Who can forgive sins except for God only.
Everyone knows that.
We are told to Love God with part of your heart part of the time eh ??
NO! We are supposed to Love God with ALL OF OUR HEART ALL OUR MIND AND ALL OF OUR STRENGTH
Just as the Holy Spirit will never ever testify of Himself. The same is true with Jesus Christ! They each give ALL GLORY TO THE FATHER @ ALL times.
Our frail feeble minds can't comprehend how 3 can be ONE. I believe God's perfect infallible Word!
This passage also reveals that there is only One True God.
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is One God, the Father out of Whom all is and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
There is one God according to this passage although there are many termed gods. This God is the Father. Jesus is Lord. The Father is the source of all things. All things come through Jesus, (the Word made flesh). There is a distinction.
Philippians 2.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The Father exalts the Son. The Son does not exalt Himself. Everything that Jesus has came from His Father, His God.
God bless.
Shana, you are so correct. The problem with strong Trinity believers is that they must manipulate and "explain" all the rest of the gospel of John in order to hang on to the idea that John 1:1 supports the Trinity. In fact it is a horrible misinterpretation of the Greek.
One reason for the great confusion about whether "theos" (God) at John 1:1c is definite or not [should the article "a" precede it as in JW Bible] is due to the publication of a prominent article written by Trinitarian professor E.C. Colwell (University of Chicago) which appeared in 1933, A Rule for use of the Article in the Greek New Testament, in Journal of Biblical Literature, p.52. Colwell's reasoning from the start was sort of convoluted, because since then, scholars misunderstood and abused his "Rule." Professor Daniel Wallace of Dallas Theological Seminary has written the following about this rule--
Quote:
Almost immediately many scholars (especially of a more conservative stripe) misunderstood Colwell's rule. They saw the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1.
------
On the one hand, Colwell's rule, as applied to John 1:1. has been played as a trump card by Trinitarians in many Christological debates, even though the rule really says nothing about the defintiteness of (I can't write the Greek word! )
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 257, 290 Dr. Daniel Wallace
And it simply doesn't make sense for John to be contradicting himself
the verse John 1:1. . . .
does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity
it does not equate the term Word or Logos with the true God
it does not equate the name of Jesus Christ with the term God.
Apostle John did not and would not call Jesus Christ "God" in John 1:1 because he would blatantly contradict himself. . .
because Apostle John himself narrated, in John 17:1,3 that Jesus in His prayer to the Father in heaven affirmed in no uncertain terms that the Father is the "only true God".
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3, NKJV)
because Apostle John also wrote in John 20:17, that Jesus also recognizes the Father as His Father and His God
Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, `I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' '' (John 20:17, NKJV)
Apostle John did not and would not identify or equate Jesus with the "only true God" in John 1:1 because he would blatantly contradict himself. . .
because Apostle John himself wrote that Jesus made it clear that He is a Man who has told the truth He heard from God.
"But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. . . . . . . (John 8:40, NKJV)
because Apostle John himself wrote that Jesus made it clear to His disciples that the Father is greater than Him.
"You have heard Me say to you, `I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, `I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)
"Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. (John 13:16)
THEREFORE, we can certainly conclude that the verse John 1:1 does not support the doctrine or teaching about the pre-existence of Christ and it does not prove that Christ Jesus is God.
All the end time religions in Christianity have doctrines which reduce Lord Jesus to a lesser deity that Father God ....... But God said in a prophetic message for Jesus to come from Isaiah 53: 10-12..........``Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him , he has put him to grief , when you will make his soul an offering for sin , he will see his seed , he will prolong his days , and the pleasure of the Lord will prosper in his hand ............He will see of the travail of his soul , and will be satisfied, by his knowledge will my righteous servant justify many , for he will bear their iniquities .......Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great , and he will divide the spoil with the strong , because he has poured out his soul on to death , and he was numbered with the transgressors , and bear the sin of many , and made intercession for the transgressors ``...................See after the cross of Christ , God said He will divide Him a portion with the great , and He will divide the spoil with the strong , as this portion with the great is God
Shana, you are so correct. The problem with strong Trinity believers is that they must manipulate and "explain" all the rest of the gospel of John in order to hang on to the idea that John 1:1 supports the Trinity. In fact it is a horrible misinterpretation of the Greek.
One reason for the great confusion about whether "theos" (God) at John 1:1c is definite or not [should the article "a" precede it as in JW Bible] is due to the publication of a prominent article written by Trinitarian professor E.C. Colwell (University of Chicago) which appeared in 1933, A Rule for use of the Article in the Greek New Testament, in Journal of Biblical Literature, p.52. Colwell's reasoning from the start was sort of convoluted, because since then, scholars misunderstood and abused his "Rule." Professor Daniel Wallace of Dallas Theological Seminary has written the following about this rule--
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 257, 290 Dr. Daniel Wallace
And it simply doesn't make sense for John to be contradicting himself
the verse John 1:1. . . .
does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity
it does not equate the term Word or Logos with the true God
it does not equate the name of Jesus Christ with the term God.
Apostle John did not and would not call Jesus Christ "God" in John 1:1 because he would blatantly contradict himself. . .
because Apostle John himself narrated, in John 17:1,3 that Jesus in His prayer to the Father in heaven affirmed in no uncertain terms that the Father is the "only true God".
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3, NKJV)
because Apostle John also wrote in John 20:17, that Jesus also recognizes the Father as His Father and His God
Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, `I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' '' (John 20:17, NKJV)
Apostle John did not and would not identify or equate Jesus with the "only true God" in John 1:1 because he would blatantly contradict himself. . .
because Apostle John himself wrote that Jesus made it clear that He is a Man who has told the truth He heard from God.
"But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. . . . . . . (John 8:40, NKJV)
because Apostle John himself wrote that Jesus made it clear to His disciples that the Father is greater than Him.
"You have heard Me say to you, `I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, `I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)
"Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. (John 13:16)
THEREFORE, we can certainly conclude that the verse John 1:1 does not support the doctrine or teaching about the pre-existence of Christ and it does not prove that Christ Jesus is God.
The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand."
Jesus tells them that to whom the word of God came were called gods by God which goes with what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians
For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is One God, the Father out of Whom all is and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Many people are called gods and Jesus is God relatively speaking because He acts on behalf of the Father. He speaks for the Father to show us the Father. . He told them that the Father was in Him and that they were to believe this because of the works that He did. That the Father was in Him doing His work through Jesus distinguishes Jesus from being the Father. God bless.
Jesus represents the One and Only True God in that He is the image of the One and Only True God and He exists in the form of God. He speaks for Him to reveal the True God to us.
One who is an image and a form is not the True One but He represents the True One, just as a mirror represents a person or an object. It is not the actual person or object. One who has a God is not the Supreme One and Only True God. Jesus makes the distinction between Himself and His God.
John 17
Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal (aionios) life. This is eternal life (aionios), that they may know You, the only true God,and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-05-2014 at 06:40 AM..
The languages of that time period were Hebrew, Aramaic, and to an extent that of Greek.
So, you may not want to put all your eggs in one basket?
Especially, if you consider the multicultural and multilingual societies that existed.
And the fact that Jesus spoke and read from the Torah, even at the age of twelve?
How is that possible? Since all they had were greek copies for over 200 plus years???
GREEK was the language spoken everywhere in those days.. You really need to do some research and provide some proof!!
Ever hear of Alexander the Great??? He conquered how much territory in how many countries how many years before Christ.
Do some actual research before you spout facts that are not even close to the truth!
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