YOU ... are NOT... who you say you are!! (church, dogma, Jesus Christ)
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The Son is God in a relative sense only. He is "the only-begotten God" (John 1:18). .. He appeared before creation "in the form of God" (Phil.2:6) so that He might reveal to creation the God Whose true Image He is. But invariably the Son is pointing to the Father, and directing that glory be given to Him. It is the Father, Who (subsequent to obedience of His Son on the cross) ordains that acclamation be given to Christ, when He highly exalts Him, and gives Him a name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow. It is clearly stated that this acclamation is "for the glory of God, the Father." biblical studies: The Deity of God, Part 2, The Supreme God, His Spirit, and His Son
More notes:
Supremely speaking, there is only one true God, even though, speaking relatively, and even in a righteous sense, “there are many gods” (1 Cor.8:5). For, indeed, “there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth” (1 Cor.8:5; cp Ex.22:8,9; Psa.82:6). Consequently, we should hardly be surprised that, in certain passages, Christ also is so termed (cf Titus 2:13; Heb.1:8; 1 John 5:20b). Except for God Himself, Christ certainly has a right to this title in a way unspeakably above that of all others, to whom it is also properly applied.
There is only One True God and One True Subjector. This is the Father who is the source of all things. He is the source of the Son and He subjects all things to Himself through the Son.
1 Cor. 15
27 For “He has put all things under His feet. But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him.."
The One who put all things under the feet of Jesus, is the Father, the One and Only True, God, the invisible God, the Supreme God, the source of all things.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-05-2014 at 06:56 AM..
According to the logic of most people on this forum when it comes to the deity of Jesus Christ. He is different from God.
Please tell me how you can separate your voice (words) from who you actually are.
When you speak; it is not you who is saying it... IT IS SOMEONE ELSE that is not you.
Does that make any sense ? Of course not.
God says : Jesus is God Hebrews chapter ONE verse 8
8 But unto the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.
Who is speaking to who, above?...If these two verses are talking about the Son, it also states that He has a G-d...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atkutuq
Jesus says He is God John 1:1 John 1:14 John 8 : 58 Isaiah 9:6 and many many more.
Yeshua said no such thing in John 1:1, 1:14, the author wrote that...
John 8:
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
This is not the same "I am" as in Exodus, it is a simple "I am" statement equal to the Hebrew "ano"...Very General...If He was implying the same as Yahua was stating in Exodus to Moishe, He would have used the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew ehyeh to imply that He has always existed which is, υπάρχουν (yparchoun), but, instead, He used the general "imei", "I am"...
Isaiah 9:
6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
Where does it say G-d in this verse?...
Isaiah 9:
5 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
The above is from the Tanakh, which the Christian Old Testament is SUPPOSED to be translated from...Even the one above that one is from the LXXE, Septuagint, which was also translated from the Tanakh and the Latin Vulgate got its translation from the LXXE...
So, how does it say one thing in the Tanakh AND the Septuagint, but yet something different in the Christian Old Testament?...
And where are these "many, many more"?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atkutuq
12 different people (12 is a foundation number) called Jesus God.
Please, do list these 12 different people...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atkutuq
So please explain to me ... that when you speak it is someone else & not you.
IN beginning was THE WORD & THE WORD was with(in) GOD & GOD WAS THE WORD!!
KAI THEOS EN HO LOGOS
and God Was The Word
That little word "with(in)" you have the has several meanings,
G4314
Original: πρός
Transliteration: pros
Phonetic: pros
Thayer Definition:
to the advantage of
at, near, by
to, towards, with, with regard to
Origin: a strengthened form of G4253
TDNT entry: 18:00,9
Part(s) of speech: Preposition
Strong's Definition: A strengthened form of G4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, that is, toward (with the genitive case the side of, that is, pertaining to ; with the dative case by the side of, that is, near to ; usually with the accusative case the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, that is, whither or for which it is predicated): - about, according to, against, among, at, because of, before, between, ([where-]) by, for, X at thy house, in, for intent, nigh unto, of, which pertain to, that, to (the end that), + together, to ([you]) -ward, unto, with (-in). In compounds it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.
Notice the bolded above....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atkutuq
See how simple it is??? Children can grasp it easily; but adults just can't comprehend and understand something so simple.
Children are easily lead to see what you want them to see, there are a lot of adults like that...
The Son is God in a relative sense only. He is "the only-begotten God" (John 1:18). .. He appeared before creation "in the form of God" (Phil.2:6) so that He might reveal to creation the God Whose true Image He is. But invariably the Son is pointing to the Father, and directing that glory be given to Him. It is the Father, Who (subsequent to obedience of His Son on the cross) ordains that acclamation be given to Christ, when He highly exalts Him, and gives Him a name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow. It is clearly stated that this acclamation is "for the glory of God, the Father." biblical studies: The Deity of God, Part 2, The Supreme God, His Spirit, and His Son
More notes:
Supremely speaking, there is only one true God, even though, speaking relatively, and even in a righteous sense, “there are many gods†(1 Cor.8:5). For, indeed, “there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth†(1 Cor.8:5; cp Ex.22:8,9; Psa.82:6). Consequently, we should hardly be surprised that, in certain passages, Christ also is so termed (cf Titus 2:13; Heb.1:8; 1 John 5:20b). Except for God Himself, Christ certainly has a right to this title in a way unspeakably above that of all others, to whom it is also properly applied.
There is only One True God and One True Subjector. This is the Father who is the source of all things. He is the source of the Son and He subjects all things to Himself through the Son.
1 Cor. 15
27 For “He has put all things under His feet. But when He says “all things are put under Him,†it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him.."
The One who put all things under the feet of Jesus, is the Father, the One and Only True, God, the invisible God, the Supreme God, the source of all things.
God bless.
Don't forget that G-d made Moses a G-d unto Pharoah...
Nope just a terrible speller, usually write it out first in word so I can use spell check, but when it is just a short point I sometimes just write directly to the forum.
Anyway if you looked it up in the Septuagint you saw that it did not say anything like this (below)
Isaiah 9:6 Unto us a child is born (Bethlehem) A Son is "given" (Golgotha) and HIS NAME SHALL BE.. The Mighty God - The Everlasting Father.... etc...
Seems to me the translators wanted to promote their belief in a trinity and hoped no one had a copy of the Septuagint.
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
LXXE
Isaiah 9:
6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 257, 290 Dr. Daniel Wallace
And it simply doesn't make sense for John to be contradicting himself
the verse John 1:1. . . .
does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity
it does not equate the term Word or Logos with the true God
it does not equate the name of Jesus Christ with the term
God.
Apostle John did not and would not call Jesus Christ "God" in John 1:1 because he would blatantly contradict himself. . .
because Apostle John himself narrated, in John 17:1,3 that
Jesus in His prayer to the Father in heaven affirmed in no uncertain terms that the Father is the "only true God".
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the
only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3, NKJV)
because Apostle John also wrote in John 20:17, that Jesus
also recognizes the Father as His Father and His God
Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet
ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, `I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' '' (John 20:17, NKJV)
Apostle John did not and would not identify or equate Jesus with the "only true God" in John 1:1 because he would blatantly contradict himself. . .
because Apostle John himself wrote that Jesus made it clear
that He is a Man who has told the truth He heard from God.
"But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the
truth which I heard from God. . . . . . . (John 8:40, NKJV)
because Apostle John himself wrote that Jesus made it clear
to His disciples that the Father is greater than Him.
"You have heard Me say to you, `I am going away and coming
back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, `I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)
"Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater
than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. (John 13:16)
THEREFORE, we can certainly conclude that the verse John 1:1 does not support the doctrine or teaching about the pre-existence of Christ and it does not prove that Christ Jesus is God.
I did read what you posted, Mike, but it still doesn't show me that Jesus is equal to the Father. If the end, He is subject to the Father just as all will be subject to the Father, how can He be equal to Him?
Jesus is fully man and fully God. Jesus was obedient to the Father. He had the capability to rebel as we all do but he did not. And remember when he says "no one knows the time of my return except the Father, not even me" That gives the Father (the God Head?) a bit of an advantage, doesn't it?
Actually, the Apostle John did not write the Gospel attributed to him...
John 21
1 After these things did Jesus manifest himself again to the disciples on the sea of Tiberias, and he did manifest himself thus:
2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas who is called Didymus, and Nathanael from Cana of Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two others of his disciples.
The sons of Zebedee were James and John, so, they are mentioned, two disciples remain nameless, one is the beloved of Yeshua and it was him who wrote these things down, it is his testimony we read, so how did it get attributed to John?...In fact, reference to this disciple remains nameless throughout the Gospel, but, yrt, it is there...
The original twelve disciples/apostles are listed in Matthew 10:2-4, “These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him.” The Bible also lists the twelve disciples/apostles in Mark 3:16-19 and Luke 6:13-16. A comparison of the three passages shows a couple of minor differences in the names. It seems that Thaddaeus was also known as “Judas, son of James” (Luke 6:16) and Lebbaeus (Matthew 10:3). Simon the Zealot was also known as Simon the Canaanite (Mark 3:18). Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus, was replaced in the twelve apostles by Matthias (see Acts 1:20-26). Some Bible teachers view Matthias as an “invalid” apostle and believe that Paul was God's choice to replace Judas Iscariot as the twelfth apostle. - Who were the twelve (12) disciples / apostles of Jesus Christ?
3 Simon Peter saith to them, `I go away to fish;' they say to him, `We go--we also--with thee;' they went forth and entered into the boat immediately, and on that night they caught nothing.
4 And morning being now come, Jesus stood at the shore, yet indeed the disciples did not know that it is Jesus;
5 Jesus, therefore, saith to them, `Lads, have ye any meat?'
6 they answered him, `No;' and he said to them, `Cast the net at the right side of the boat, and ye shall find;' they cast, therefore, and no longer were they able to draw it, from the multitude of the fishes.
7 That disciple, therefore, whom Jesus was loving saithto Peter, `The Lord it is!' Simon Peter, therefore, having heard that it is the Lord, did gird on the outer coat, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea;
8 and the other disciples came by the little boat, for they were not far from the land, but as it were about two hundred cubits off, dragging the net of the fishes;
9 when, therefore, they came to the land, they behold a fire of coals lying, and a fish lying on it, and bread.
10 Jesus saith to them, `Bring ye from the fishes that ye caught now;'
11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net up on the land, full of great fishes, an hundred fifty and three, and though they were so many, the net was not rent.
12 Jesus saith to them, `Come ye, dine;' and none of the disciples was venturing to inquire of him, `Who art thou?' knowing that it is the Lord;
13 Jesus, therefore, doth come and take the bread and give to them, and the fish in like manner;
14 this is now a third time Jesus was manifested to his disciples, having been raised from the dead.
15 When, therefore, they dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, `Simon, son of Jonas, dost thou love me more than these?' he saith to him, `Yes, Lord; thou hast known that I dearly love thee;' he saith to him, `Feed my lambs.'
16 He saith to him again, a second time, `Simon, son of Jonas, dost thou love me?' he saith to him, `Yes, Lord; thou hast known that I dearly love thee;' he saith to him, `Tend my sheep.'
17 He saith to him the third time, `Simon, son of Jonas, dost thou dearly love me?' Peter was grieved that he said to him the third time, `Dost thou dearly love me?' and he said to him, `Lord, thou hast known all things; thou dost know that I dearly love thee.' Jesus saith to him, `Feed my sheep;
18 verily, verily, I say to thee, When thou wast younger, thou wast girding thyself and wast walking whither thou didst will, but when thou mayest be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another will gird thee, and shall carry thee whither thou dost not will;'
19 and this he said, signifying by what death he shall glorify God; and having said this, he saith to him, `Be following me.'
20 And Peter having turned about doth see the disciple whom Jesus was loving following, (who also reclined in the supper on his breast, and said, `Sir, who is he who is delivering thee up?')
21 Peter having seen this one, saith to Jesus, `Lord, and what of this one?'
22 Jesus saith to him, `If him I will to remain till I come, what--to thee? be thou following me.' This word, therefore, went forth to the brethren that that disciple doth not die,
23 yet Jesus did not say to him, that he doth not die, but, `If him I will to remain till I come, what--to thee?'
24 this is the disciple who is testifying concerning these things, and he wrote these things, and we have known that his testimony is true.
25 And there are also many other things--as many as Jesus did--which, if they may be written one by one, not even the world itself I think to have place for the books written. Amen.
For a child is born unto us, a son
is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is
called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
LXXE
Isaiah 9:
6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon
his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will
bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
Hunterseat, do you believe that Jesus is equal with the Father? I believe that the Father is Supreme, above all. Jesus is the Word made flesh and came forth from the Father and He is His image. Jesus has a God. His God is His Father. The Father has no God above Him. He alone is Sovereign. But He highly exalted the Son and gave Him all things. God bless.
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Supremely speaking, there is only one true God, even though, speaking relatively, and even in a righteous sense, “there are many gods” (1 Cor.8:5). For, indeed, “there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth” (1 Cor.8:5; cp Ex.22:8,9; Psa.82:6). Consequently, we should hardly be surprised that, in certain passages, Christ also is so termed (cf Titus 2:13; Heb.1:8; 1 John 5:20b). Except for God Himself, Christ certainly has a right to this title in a way unspeakably above that of all others, to whom it is also properly applied.
