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Shana, you are so correct. The problem with strong Trinity believers is that they must manipulate and "explain" all the rest of the gospel of John in order to hang on to the idea that John 1:1 supports the Trinity. In fact it is a horrible misinterpretation of the Greek.
One reason for the great confusion about whether "theos" (God) at John 1:1c is definite or not [should the article "a" precede it as in JW Bible] is due to the publication of a prominent article written by Trinitarian professor E.C. Colwell (University of Chicago) which appeared in 1933, A Rule for use of the Article in the Greek New Testament, in Journal of Biblical Literature, p.52. Colwell's reasoning from the start was sort of convoluted, because since then, scholars misunderstood and abused his "Rule." Professor Daniel Wallace of Dallas Theological Seminary has written the following about this rule--
Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 257, 290 Dr. Daniel Wallace
And it simply doesn't make sense for John to be contradicting himself
the verse John 1:1. . . .
does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity
it does not equate the term Word or Logos with the true God
it does not equate the name of Jesus Christ with the term God.
Apostle John did not and would not call Jesus Christ "God" in John 1:1 because he would blatantly contradict himself. . .
because Apostle John himself narrated, in John 17:1,3 that Jesus in His prayer to the Father in heaven affirmed in no uncertain terms that the Father is the "only true God".
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3, NKJV)
because Apostle John also wrote in John 20:17, that Jesus also recognizes the Father as His Father and His God
Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, `I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' '' (John 20:17, NKJV)
Apostle John did not and would not identify or equate Jesus with the "only true God" in John 1:1 because he would blatantly contradict himself. . .
because Apostle John himself wrote that Jesus made it clear that He is a Man who has told the truth He heard from God.
"But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. . . . . . . (John 8:40, NKJV)
because Apostle John himself wrote that Jesus made it clear to His disciples that the Father is greater than Him.
"You have heard Me say to you, `I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, `I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)
"Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. (John 13:16)
THEREFORE, we can certainly conclude that the verse John 1:1 does not support the doctrine or teaching about the pre-existence of Christ and it does not prove that Christ Jesus is God.
Hunterseat, do you believe that Jesus is equal with the Father? I believe that the Father is Supreme, above all. Jesus is the Word made flesh and came forth from the Father and He is His image. Jesus has a God. His God is His Father. The Father has no God above Him. He alone is Sovereign. But He highly exalted the Son and gave Him all things. God bless.
What about the Spirit? Does He factor in here somewhere? Jesus doesn't know the date of His return but the Father does. So they wouldn't be equal, though they are both fully God.
A wise pastor said one time, speaking of marriage, there has to be a head. Something with two heads isn't natural. Something with no head will die.
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. I believe that this is the Spirit of God that was in Jesus and that is in believers today. God's Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, just as Jesus came forth from the Father. God's Holy Spirit a manifestation of God and it is His power and His influence. Although the Holy Spirit is personified scriptures like Wisdom is at times, it is not a separate person in a Trinity. Jesus never said that He had a relationship with the Holy Spirit. The Father gave Jesus the Spirit without measure and we also have God's Holy Spirit living in us.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22: Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Ephesians 2:21-22: In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Ephesians 3:16: I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being.
1 John 4:12-14: No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-05-2014 at 05:34 PM..
I guess you just don't like my style so you feel it is right to characterize me in a negative manner.
That's your problem - NOT MINE. Thanks for your input but it has nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread.
Really? Nothing I said before had anything to do with the subject matter is what you really believe? I provided my thoughts but you not only didn't want to hear what I had to say but sad "discussion closed". Re-read your response and with a serious explanation tell me why I should take your previous response as genuine you searching for discussion and how you can say I am being negative while your responses are not?
There is no characterization from me since it was you who revealed yourself to others. I only asked you logical questions and you exposed yourself, even now you respond angry and negative.
As far as my comment about you having love of exclamation (not explanation) points and question marks I just made an observation.
"Throughout the Scriptures the Son is spoken of as of God, the Spirit is spoken of as of God but nowhere is the Father spoken of as of God. The Father is never spoken of as of God because the Father is God (the One and Only True God) and the Son and Spirit are not this God but of this God.
"Just as the thoughts of man's spirit are not separated or distinct from man, neither are the thoughts of God’s Spirit separate or distinct from God."
"Just as the thoughts of man's spirit are not separated or distinct from man, neither are the thoughts of God’s Spirit separate or distinct from God."
Thank you for sharing that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MensaDude
Here we go again... contradicting what the bible teaches! Isaiah 55:9
God says.. My thoughts are higher than your thoughts! My ways are not your ways.
As Heaven is higher than the earth so are my thoughts higher than yours.
This is the "age of deception" that Jesus warned us about!
What about the Spirit? Does He factor in here somewhere? Jesus doesn't know the date of His return but the Father does. So they wouldn't be equal, though they are both fully God.
A wise pastor said one time, speaking of marriage, there has to be a head. Something with two heads isn't natural. Something with no head will die.
I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. I believe that this is the Spirit of God that was in Jesus and that is in believers today. God's Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, just as Jesus came forth from the Father. God's Holy Spirit a manifestation of God and it is His power and His influence. Although the Holy Spirit is personified scriptures like Wisdom is at times, it is not a separate person in a Trinity. Jesus never said that He had a relationship with the Holy Spirit. The Father gave Jesus the Spirit without measure and we also have God's Holy Spirit living in us.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22: Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Ephesians 2:21-22: In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Ephesians 3:16: I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being.
1 John 4:12-14: No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
Here we go again... contradicting what the bible teaches! Isaiah 55:9
God says.. My thoughts are higher than your thoughts! My ways are not your ways. As Heaven is higher than the earth so are my thoughts higher than yours.
This is the "age of deception" that Jesus warned us about!
What's so contradicting about what Jerwade just said?...
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Jesus doesn't know the date of His return but the Father does. So they wouldn't be equal, though they are both fully God.
