If a single act of homosexuality is abomination in God's eyes then same-sex marriage must be evil to the infinite power (KJV, denominations)
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Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
My beliefs are in accordance with southern baptist. According to wikipedia, there are 15.7 million members and that's not counting people who don't join the church officially. I hardly consider that to be an extremely small minority like you suggest here.
It's a sad thing to say but guess religion is needed for some people if that's all that keeps them civil.
I'd be embarrassed to admit it but guess some aren't.
You're right, it is very sad. And quite disturbing, really. You see it as a frequent theme on these forums - people unashamedly admitting that the only way they know how to be decent, moral human beings is to follow the teachings of their religion. That without their bible to tell them how to conduct themselves, they would not know how to live a good, moral life.
Yes, it is sad. And more than a little frightening, when you consider the fact that these are the ones who want to tell us how to live our lives.
The BBC article states that: The ONS received 450,000 responses in its new Integrated Household Survey.
The survey provides the biggest pool of social data in the UK after the Census, ONS says.BBC News - UK gay, lesbian and bisexual population revealed Of course London had the biggest and smaller areas had smaller numbers. It like that with other countries as gays are a higher percentage in big cities compared to smaller areas.
Well Kinsey report has been much promoted in the last 60 years. I remember this so when I was back at university and there was a big billboard there claiming that gays and lesbians represented 10% of the population. Also there is another university gay organisation is called the 10% percent society: 10% Society | Clubs and Organizations | Carthage College I wonder why
Yet also there was a survey where Americans believe that the number of gay and lesbian people are even higher than the 10%
More specifically, over half of Americans (52%) estimate that at least one in five Americans are gay or lesbian, including 35% who estimate that more than one in four are. Thirty percent put the figure at less than 15%.U.S. adults, on average, estimate that 25We % of Americans are gay or lesbian. U.S. Adults Estimate That 25% of Americans Are Gay or Lesbian
Here is a link to an scientific article regarding prenatal hormones published 2 years ago:Prenatal hormones play minor role in sexual orientationAnd here is the abstract:A recent swathe of research on the effects of exposure to testosterone in the womb shows that its influence on human sexual orientation is weak to modest. Rather than the overwhelming influence on sexual orientation the researchers had been expecting to find it is only between 16-27%. This finding is for heterosexuality, and the influence on homosexuality and transgender should be even less. (A corroborating research paper is in preparation.) Basically, one is not born straight, gay or transgender.
Of course we are not born gay, straight or transgender. Yet the bible is clear we are born to sin. Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Even though we were born as sinners, we continue to sin by our own personal choices.
Yet without Jesus we would die in our sins. He died on the cross for our sins. With that those that believe in him as well as having him as their personal saviour are put right to God and they will be God people.
Regarding homosexuality, homosexual sins are no worse than hetrosexual sins. Those that lust after someone has already sinned.
Sure God loves everyone and more so than you can imagine. He knew you even before you were born. Yet one thing that the Lord hates is sin and that is what truly separates us from God.
But you HURT people with your condemnation of the fact that they ARE BORN the way they are. Maybe you weren't, but 99.9% of us have no control over who we are attracted to physically. I've given you plenty to read on that subject.
The church is in such error on this point that it is serving the devil himself.
Quote:
The church has preserved that which is immoral and unethical. Called to combat social evils, it has remained silent behind stained-glass windows---How often the church has been the echo rather than a voice, a tailgate behind the Supreme Court rather than a headlight guiding men progressively and decisively to higher levels of understanding.
The Christian gospel is a two-way road. On the one hand it seeks to change the souls of men and thereby unite them with God; on the other hand it seeks to change the conditions of men so that the soul will have a chance after it is changed.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
A better grasp of the Spirit of Jesus would be a good start. First look up every scripture verse where Jesus was angry or called people names. Were any of them homosexuals? Were any of those people adulterers, or thieves, or liars? Not one!! NOT ONE!!!
Every person Jesus confronted personally was a religious person. Jesus absolutely despised the use of religion to escape God's demand for mercy and love and justice --- FOR SINNERS!! Why do you think He had all those confrontations with Pharisees? Because in so many words, they were literally beating their chests and saying, "Thank God, I'm not like that homosexual!" And that's what you are doing by waving the Bible around. There is no mercy, no love, only condemnation as an "above average" sinner.
But that's the thing about trying to follow the Law, rather than understand Grace. You have to follow EVERY SINGLE LAW. And if you fail in one, then you are guilty of them all. And since all of us fail in following the law--then, if homosexuality is a sin, we are all homosexuals, me and you included, despite the fact that my wife of 43 years is the only person I've known "biblically." We have no right to preach at others about their sin unless we are living totally sinless lives. You know, sort of like the woman caught in adultery, when Jesus told the Pharisees "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." They walked away because they had all sinned. But they were right!! The Law did call for the woman's execution, and if anyone had a right to cast the first stone it was Jesus. But He didn't. He knew she was a sinner. He told her to go and sin no more, but you and I know she did--because WE DO--whether or not we are saved we still sin. So how many times should she be forgiven? Seven? That was what one disciple asked Jesus, and what was His reply? Seventy-times seven. Basically, He was saying that forgiveness is unlimited.
You might try showing more of that forgiveness toward those you feel are sinning. Your words of condemnation won't win any to Christ. He, Himself, won no souls to be His followers by condemning people. He did it with mercy.
I'm more and more beginning to believe that theologian Soren Kierkegaard some two hundred years ago was correct when he said, "What we need to do is burn all the Bibles." He saw how much evil had come from bible idolatry. How evil men shape the words of scripture to justify ugliness toward other men all the while saying "It's not me saying it!! It's God!! I'm not guilty of any discretion. Lord, if I made a mistake, it's YOUR FAULT for giving me the Bible!"
If we burned all the Bibles then men would have to stand on their own before other men and not use it as a weapon against some, and as a shield for themselves against the fact that they are bigots.
Incidentally, I started a thread that is still running on the fact that God hates sinners. But the point is that we should look at ourselves for the sinner each of us is, not use it to tell others how sinful they are. One thing is pretty clear, everyone is willing to admit they are sinners except when posing behind the Bible--then they all feel righteous.
But you HURT people with your condemnation of the fact that they ARE BORN the way they are. Maybe you weren't, but 99.9% of us have no control over who we are attracted to physically. I've given you plenty to read on that subject.
The church is in such error on this point that it is serving the devil himself.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
A better grasp of the Spirit of Jesus would be a good start. First look up every scripture verse where Jesus was angry or called people names. Were any of them homosexuals? Were any of those people adulterers, or thieves, or liars? Not one!! NOT ONE!!!
Every person Jesus confronted personally was a religious person. Jesus absolutely despised the use of religion to escape God's demand for mercy and love and justice --- FOR SINNERS!! Why do you think He had all those confrontations with Pharisees? Because in so many words, they were literally beating their chests and saying, "Thank God, I'm not like that homosexual!" And that's what you are doing by waving the Bible around. There is no mercy, no love, only condemnation as an "above average" sinner.
But that's the thing about trying to follow the Law, rather than understand Grace. You have to follow EVERY SINGLE LAW. And if you fail in one, then you are guilty of them all. And since all of us fail in following the law--then, if homosexuality is a sin, we are all homosexuals, me and you included, despite the fact that my wife of 43 years is the only person I've known "biblically." We have no right to preach at others about their sin unless we are living totally sinless lives. You know, sort of like the woman caught in adultery, when Jesus told the Pharisees "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." They walked away because they had all sinned. But they were right!! The Law did call for the woman's execution, and if anyone had a right to cast the first stone it was Jesus. But He didn't. He knew she was a sinner. He told her to go and sin no more, but you and I know she did--because WE DO--whether or not we are saved we still sin. So how many times should she be forgiven? Seven? That was what one disciple asked Jesus, and what was His reply? Seventy-times seven. Basically, He was saying that forgiveness is unlimited.
You might try showing more of that forgiveness toward those you feel are sinning. Your words of condemnation won't win any to Christ. He, Himself, won no souls to be His followers by condemning people. He did it with mercy.
I'm more and more beginning to believe that theologian Soren Kierkegaard some two hundred years ago was correct when he said, "What we need to do is burn all the Bibles." He saw how much evil had come from bible idolatry. How evil men shape the words of scripture to justify ugliness toward other men all the while saying "It's not me saying it!! It's God!! I'm not guilty of any discretion. Lord, if I made a mistake, it's YOUR FAULT for giving me the Bible!"
If we burned all the Bibles then men would have to stand on their own before other men and not use it as a weapon against some, and as a shield for themselves against the fact that they are bigots.
I know you and i we have huge differences of opinion , but this is an excellent post,i commend you for it. It should be pinned at the top of the forum.
My beliefs are in accordance with southern baptist. According to wikipedia, there are 15.7 million members and that's not counting people who don't join the church officially. I hardly consider that to be an extremely small minority like you suggest here.
BTW, the Bible doesn't say all sins are created equal. It says sexual immorality (which includes homosexuality) is even more damaging than other sins:
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.
1 Corinthians 6:18
I was saved in a Southern Baptist Church, licensed to preach in a Southern Baptist Church located on Okinawa, attended a Southern Baptist College where I got my degree and fell three hours short of a double minor in Bible. I married a Southern Baptist preacher's daughter and have remained with that one woman for 43 years--closer to 44 now. I've preached in about sixty or so SBC affiliated churches.
But in the late eighties and early nineties the Southern Baptist Church left it's true calling and became a hate-filled, male dominated, political arm of a certain political party--and I got out because I saw it going straight to hell.
The Lottie Moon offering was run by women for over fifty years with not a single discrepancy in any of the funds raised. But late in the eighties leadership in the SBC kept saying that "their needs to be accountability," and formed a male dominated committee to "oversee" the work of the women in the church.
So it's not just homosexuals the SBC wants to control--it's women as well.
Are there good people in the denomination? Of course, a few remain, including my wife's best friend. But the denomination set about kicking out anyone who wouldn't meet a litmus test of fundamentalism such that my father-in-law who graduated from Southern Seminary in Louisville wouldn't be able to attend today. My good friend and pastor in college became a missionary to Africa. He IS a fundamentalist, but he refused to sign a required statement about the Bible as inerrant and infallible and was kicked out of his post after nineteen years of service. They wouldn't even pay to ship his household goods back to the states.
That's the kind of denomination you adhere to. It left its true calling of bringing men to Christ--the church I knew as a young teenager and as a young adult. So don't think for a moment that the SBC church you are in is in any way a reflection of the historical church. It has evolved into something quite different in the last two and half decades. And it breaks my heart today to see where it has landed.
Earlier this year when an SBC pastor in California discovered his son was gay, he made a statement to his church family that he was taking a different stance with regard to how homosexuals are viewed and what the response of the church should be. His church voted to retains him as pastor. The SBC threw them out--so you can feel purified by their decision. May God bless your pea-pickin' heart.
These are the Christian young people whom you are telling they are sinners--and this is how it is affecting them.
John Pavlovitz is an 18-year local church ministry veteran. He is currently the pastor of a house church community called North Wake House Church, and also a volunteer at North Raleigh Community Church. He is married to wife, Jennifer, and has two young children, Noah and Selah.
He’s also a keen blogger, and a blog that he posted last week – entitled ‘If I Have Gay Children: Four Promises From A Christian Pastor/Parent’ has gone viral and prompted thousands of comments. The reason? Because he believes he would treat his LGBTI children with exactly the same love and support as if they were straight, and would pray that they weren’t the victims of ignorance or hatred.
‘I was prepared for some people to applaud it, and for others to condemn it,’ he said afterwards. ‘That's what happens whenever you put an opinion out there. I was fully prepared for the waves of both support and hostility that accompany any vantage point, especially on a controversial topic like this. ‘What I was not prepared for in any way, were the literally hundreds and hundreds of people who have reached out to me personally to thank me for bringing some healing and hope to their families; for giving them a message they rarely get from Christian leaders. 'Many parents, children, and siblings have confided in me – some for the first time anywhere – telling of the pain, and bullying, and shunning they're received from churches, pastors, and church members. ‘They have shared with me their stories of exclusion, isolation, of unanswered prayers, of destructive therapies, of suicide attempts, and of being actively and passively driven from faith, by people of faith.
If I Have Gay Children: Four Promises From A Christian Pastor/Parent
Sometimes I wonder if I’ll have gay children. I’m not sure if other parents think about this, but I do; quite often. Maybe it’s because I have many gay people in my family and circle of friends. It’s in my genes and in my tribe. Maybe it’s because, as a pastor of students, I’ve seen and heard the horror stories of gay Christian kids, from both inside and outside of the closet, trying to be part of the Church. Maybe it’s because, as a Christian, I interact with so many people who find homosexuality to be the most repulsive thing imaginable, and who make that abundantly clear at every conceivable opportunity. For whatever reason, it’s something that I ponder frequently. As a pastor and a parent, I wanted to make some promises to you, and to my two kids right now…
1) If I have gay children, you’ll all know it. My children won’t be our family’s best-kept secret. I won’t talk around them in conversations with others. I won’t speak in code or vague language. I won’t try to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes, and I won’t try to spare the feelings of those who may be older, or easily offended, or uncomfortable. Childhood is difficult enough, and most gay kids spend their entire existence being horribly, excruciatingly uncomfortable. I’m not going to put mine through any more unnecessary discomfort, just to make Thanksgiving dinner a little easier for a third cousin with misplaced anger issues.If my children come out, we’ll be out as a family.
2) If I have gay children, I’ll pray for them. I won’t pray for them to be made ‘normal’. I’ve lived long enough to know that if my children are gay, that is their normal. I won’t pray that God will heal or change or fix them. I will pray for God to protect them; from the ignorance and hatred and violence that the world will throw at them, simply because of who they are. I’ll pray the He shields them from those who will despise them and wish them harm; who will curse them to Hell and put them through Hell, without ever knowing them at all. I’ll pray that they enjoy life; that they laugh, and dream, and feel, and forgive, and that they love God and humanity. Above all, I’ll pray to God that my children won’t allow the unGodly treatment they might receive from some of His misguided children, to keep them from pursuing Him.
3) If I have gay children, I’ll love them. I don’t mean some token, distant, tolerant love that stays at a safe arm’s length. It will be an extravagant, open hearted, unapologetic, lavish, embarrassing-them-in-the-school cafeteria, kind of love. I won’t love them despite their sexuality, and I won’t love them because of it. I will love them; simply because they’re sweet, and funny, and caring, and smart, and kind, and stubborn, and flawed, and original, and beautiful… and mine.If my kids are gay, they may doubt a million things about themselves and about this world, but they’ll never doubt for a second whether or not their Daddy is over-the-moon crazy about them.
4) If I have gay children, most likely; I have gay children. If my kids are going to be gay, well they pretty much already are. God has already created them and wired them, and placed the seed of who they are within them. Psalm 139 says that He, ‘stitched them together in their mother’s womb’. The incredibly intricate stuff that makes them uniquely them; once-in-History souls, has already been uploaded into their very cells. Because of that, there isn’t a coming deadline on their sexuality that their mother and I are working feverishly toward. I don’t believe there’s some magical expiration date approaching, by which time she and I need to somehow do, or say, or pray just the right things to get them to 'turn straight', or forever lose them to the other side. They are today, simply a younger version of who they will be; and today they’re pretty darn great. Many of you may be offended by all of this, I fully realize. I know this may be especially true if you are a religious person; one who finds the whole topic disgusting. As you’ve been reading, you may have been rolling your eyes, or clicking the roof of your mouth, or drafting familiar Scriptures to send me, or praying for me to repent, or preparing to Unfriend me, or writing me off as a sinful, evil, Hell-bound heretic… but with as much gentleness and understanding as I can muster; I really couldn’t care less. This isn’t about you. This is a whole lot bigger than you.You’re not the one I waited on breathlessly for nine months. You’re not the one I wept with joy for when you were born. You’re not the one I bathed, and fed, and rocked to sleep through a hundred intimate, midnight snuggle sessions. You’re not the one I taught to ride a bike, and whose scraped knee I kissed, and whose tiny, trembling hand I held, while getting stitches. You’re not the one whose head I love to smell, and whose face lights-up when I come home at night, and whose laughter is like music to my weary soul. You’re not the one who gives my days meaning and purpose, and who I adore more than I ever thought I could adore anything. And you’re not the one who I’ll hopefully be with, when I take my last precious breaths on this planet; gratefully looking back on a lifetime of shared treasures, and resting in the knowledge that I loved you well. If you’re a parent, I don’t know how you’ll respond if you find out your children are gay, but I pray you consider it. One day, despite your perceptions of your kids or how you’ve parented, you may need to respond in real-time, to a frightened, frantic, hurting child; one whose sense of peace, and identity, and acceptance; whose very heart, may be placed in your hands in a way you never imagined… and you’ll need to respond. If that day should ever come for me; if my children should ever come out to me, this is the Dad I hope I’ll be to them.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,940,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
John Pavlovitz is an 18-year local church ministry veteran. He is currently the pastor of a house church community called North Wake House Church, and also a volunteer at North Raleigh Community Church. He is married to wife, Jennifer, and has two young children, Noah and Selah.
He’s also a keen blogger, and a blog that he posted last week – entitled ‘If I Have Gay Children: Four Promises From A Christian Pastor/Parent’ has gone viral and prompted thousands of comments. The reason? Because he believes he would treat his LGBTI children with exactly the same love and support as if they were straight, and would pray that they weren’t the victims of ignorance or hatred.
Great post warden. I've posted it on my Facebook page as an example of what a Christian should be like. Thanks for sharing.
What an incredible human being he is, don't you think?
Just think what a different place this world would be if every Christian was like him. Have you ever taken a moment to consider that? Because I've certainly reflected on it a few times. I wish they'd lift the limit on how often you can rep the same person; I'd just use all of mine in him every day.
Here is a link to an scientific article regarding prenatal hormones published 2 years ago:Prenatal hormones play minor role in sexual orientationAnd here is the abstract:A recent swathe of research on the effects of exposure to testosterone in the womb shows that its influence on human sexual orientation is weak to modest. Rather than the overwhelming influence on sexual orientation the researchers had been expecting to find it is only between 16-27%. This finding is for heterosexuality, and the influence on homosexuality and transgender should be even less. (A corroborating research paper is in preparation.) Basically, one is not born straight, gay or transgender.
It's not a 'scientific article'. It's not 'published' in an academic peer-reviewed Journal. It's a link to a personal website put together by a member of NARTH - the anti-gay conservative religious fringe group. There is no 'published' article or 'study' by Whitehead. Just his evidence-free opinion based on junk science and misrepresentation of research by legitimate scientists.
The guy has no expertise in this field. The only Journal he 'publishes' his anti-gay propaganda in, is in a fake "Journal" run by NARTH where he is one of the 'editors'.
He has even put in capitals at the top of his website "THIS IS AN ACADEMIC WEBSITE"
Really? What credible scientist would do that?
Seriously, if the only way you can support your views is by linking to rubbish like this and ignoring all the legitimate science, then you are just deluding yourself.
My beliefs are in accordance with southern baptist. According to wikipedia, there are 15.7 million members and that's not counting people who don't join the church officially. I hardly consider that to be an extremely small minority like you suggest here.
BTW, the Bible doesn't say all sins are created equal. It says sexual immorality (which includes homosexuality) is even more damaging than other sins:
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.
1 Corinthians 6:18
So in your viewpoint, slashing yourself with a knife is a far worse sin than slashing somebody else?
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The correct Christian response to homosexuality
