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"When a wicked man turns from wickedness and does what is right and just, he shall live", say the Lord
And Jesus told His disciples if they destroy their souls, they will get them back (Matt.10:39). So no soul that dies or is destroyed is unsalvable.
We must never read into "die" the idea of eternality. Death is necessary for life. "Even as in Adam all (humans) are dying, thus also in Christ shall all (humans) be made alive (vivified).
God truly will save all mankind for Christ truly did ransom all mankind (1 Tim.2:4-6).
And Jesus told His disciples if they destroy their souls, they will get them back (Matt.10:39). So no soul that dies or is destroyed is unsalvable.
We must never read into "die" the idea of eternality. Death is necessary for life. "Even as in Adam all (humans) are dying, thus also in Christ shall all (humans) be made alive (vivified).
God truly will save all mankind for Christ truly did ransom all mankind (1 Tim.2:4-6).
Your interpretation of Matt. 10:39 is suspect.
Matthew 10
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
IMO, Jesus is telling His disciples, if you give your life for my cause, you will be given it back in eternity. What does that have to do with unbelievers?
Originally Posted by Eusebius The above verses do not say such ones will NEVER EVER be saved. And if they did they would directly contradict God's very word of 1 Timothy 2:4-6; 4:10,11; Romans 5:18,19; 1 Corinthians 15:22-28; Ephesians 1:9,10; Colossians 1:20; Philippians 2:8-11; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:14; John 4:42 to name but a few.
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Originally Posted by Peacegiver
If someone dies and is not born of water and spirit and does not do the will of God then they are not saved. They will never enter the kingdom of God.
Try to enter by the narrow gate. Many will try and be unable for the road that leads to destruction is easy and the gate is wide and many will take it but the road that leads to life is hard and the gate is narrow and there are few who find it.
So you believe it is just fine to array your ideas against the very Word of God?
Christ was talking only about the kingdom of God Christ is going to set up on earth during the millennium. If an Israelite (that is who Christ was talking to, not all mankind) but if an Israelite is not begotten anew they will not enter the kingdom of God. Christ never said such ones will never EVER be saved.
When Christ spoke of the narrow path He was speaking concerning the law.
"then, whatever you should be wanting that men should be doing to you, thus you, also,
be doing to them, for this is the law and the prophets. (13) Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the
gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through
it. (14) what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who
are finding it" (Matt.7:12-14).
The cramped gate was the law of Moses. Very very few Israelites found life by going through the law of Moses.
God truly is going to save all mankind for Christ truly gave Himself a ransom for all mankind. Believe it. Don't fight it.
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
IMO, Jesus is telling His disciples, if you give your life for my cause, you will be given it back in eternity. What does that have to do with unbelievers?
"Life" is "zoe" in Greek. "Soul" is "psuche." Your translation is suspect for it is not in harmony with the Greek text. If God wanted us to understand it was life they were to lose He would have used "zoe." He did not.
"Life" is "zoe" in Greek. "Soul" is "psuche." Your translation is suspect for it is not in harmony with the Greek text. If God wanted us to understand it was life they were to lose He would have used "zoe." He did not.
And your interpretation doesn't work in the context of that passage.
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
Jesus is clearly talking about service to the gospel.
From Matthew Henry's commentary:
He that findeth his life shall lose it he that thinks he had found it when he has saved it, and kept it, by denying Christ, shall lose it in an eternal death but he that loseth his life for Christ's sake, that will part with it rather than deny Christ, shall find it, to his unspeakable advantage, an eternal life. They are best prepared for the life to come, that sit most loose to this present life.
And your interpretation doesn't work in the context of that passage.
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
Jesus is clearly talking about service to the gospel.
From Matthew Henry's commentary:
He that findeth his life shall lose it he that thinks he had found it when he has saved it, and kept it, by denying Christ, shall lose it in an eternal death but he that loseth his life for Christ's sake, that will part with it rather than deny Christ, shall find it, to his unspeakable advantage, an eternal life. They are best prepared for the life to come, that sit most loose to this present life.
But jimmiej, first of all, Matthew Henry is making up stuff. The Bible no where states that Jesus said to His disciples they face an ETERNAL DEATH if they don't do what He says! Secondly, the interpretation (actually it's a translation) I used has to work.
ZOE in Greek is "life." Psuche in Greek is "soul." Zoe was not used in your verse 39 above and should be "soul" in spite of what your errant translation or Matthew Henry says.
Mat_10:39 He who is finding his soul (psuche) will be destroying it,
and he who destroys his soul (psuche) on My account will be finding it.
Here is A.E. Knoch's commentary on Matthew 10:39:
"39 This has special reference to the time of Jacob's trouble, at the time of the end, when many will suffer and die rather than worship the image of the wild beast (Rev 13:15). They will avoid suffering, or save their souls, only at the risk of God's indignation, and the loss of the pleasures of the kingdom. Those who endure affliction for the kingdom will enjoy the bliss of the kingdom. They destroy their souls to find them. Those who avoid suffering by yielding to the pressure of the adversary, will have no portion in the kingdom. They find their souls for a brief period only to destroy them for the thousand years."
Matthew 16:25-26 whosoever may be wanting to save his soul (psuche) shall be destroying it. Yet whoever should be destroying his soul (psuche) on My account shall be finding it. (26) what will a man be benefited, if he should ever be gaining the whole world, yet be forfeiting his soul (psuche)? Or what will a man be giving in exchange for his soul (psuche)?
A.E. Knoch's commentar on the above two verses:
"Our Lord now proclaims the evangel of suffering. Those who shirk-these will save their souls in the meantime, but lose them in the kingdom. Those who suffer-these will reign. There is much in common between the interval reaching from our Lord's rejection to His crucifixion and the present administration. In both the kingdom proclamation gives place to the evangel of His sufferings. In both service is associated with suffering and rejection with reigning. It is never said that the successful servant will reign, but, if we are enduring, we shall also be reigning together (2 Tim.2:12).
The soul is the body's ability to sense. If your foot falls asleep, this is due to the blood supply lacking in that area. The Old Testament says the soul is in the blood. Some errant translations say "the life is in the blood." But clearly the word is for soul, not life. So Christ is asking His followers to cut off their soulish pleasures in this life and if they do so they will enjoy the soulish pleasures in the kingdom to come. That is what destroying one's soul is all about. Jesus wasn't asking them to commit suicide by taking their lives!
Lev_17:11 for the soul(psuche) of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls (psuchon) on the altar; for the blood, in the soul (psuches) it makes a propitiatory shelter.
"God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6),
all what?
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and
"God IS the Saviour of all mankind, especially them that believe. These things charge and teach" (1 Timothy 4:10,11)
How is he "especially" the savior of those that believe, if you believe all are saved? What's the point of believing?
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then it is a sure thing that your theology is not correct.
If your church or pastor tells you "God will NOT save all mankind even if Christ ransomed all" and "God is NOT the Saviour of all mankind" then you should find a church or pastor that teaches that which God tells him to charge and teach.
Or perhaps you are simply reading it incorrectly. And this is YET ANOTHER thread to harp on the idea that you think all are saved. I honestly don't know why it's so important for you to make sure we believe this. Heck...if we're all going to be saved anyway...why not go out and party like crazy?
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Why do you think your pastor has never told you that which God tells him to charge and teach?
I do tell my congregation that which God has charged me to teach. It doesn't sound like YOUR pastor does, though. I find that sad.
"God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6),
and
"God IS the Saviour of all mankind, especially them that believe. These things charge and teach" (1 Timothy 4:10,11)
then it is a sure thing that your theology is not correct.
If your church or pastor tells you "God will NOT save all mankind even if Christ ransomed all" and "God is NOT the Saviour of all mankind" then you should find a church or pastor that teaches that which God tells him to charge and teach.
Why do you think your pastor has never told you that which God tells him to charge and teach?
More spam.
Why is it a sure thing? You only told us this is the right belief, not why it is.
I never understood "grace alone" mentality. Yes, with all our heart, we believe that God is sufficient, and we have value in God's eyes. That Christ died for us, and for all. To love our neighbor as ourselves. To teach by word and example of this.
But if this is the only thing that matters, why do we work hard, give to the poor, etc? Just because we want to?
I attend just such a church, ironically, not because I buy it (though I'm warming up to it, as I'm tired of beating myself up over what I didn't do), but because the priest has sermons every week that make me seriously look at my life and decide whether I'm living it right. Every week.
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 10-23-2014 at 11:53 AM..
TO the OP: Because Jesus never said everyone would be saved. Yes, He is the one and Only Savior and He has made attonement for the sins of all mankind, but without faith, without a desire to repent of ones sins, there is no salvation. Remember that Jesus also said.
Lk 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. The Greek word there can also be translated, "destroyed."
Mt 11:21 “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mt 11:22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.
Mt 11:23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
Mt 11:24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
Originally Posted by Eusebius If your theological ideas contradict this:
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Eusebius wrote:
"God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6),
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Vizio stated: all what?
Well, we aren't talking about all typewriters now, are we? The ellipsis is "all mankind" since "all mankind" was used prior in the same thought.
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Eusebius wrote: and
"God IS the Saviour of all mankind, especially them that believe. These things charge and teach" (1 Timothy 4:10,11)
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Vizio stated: How is he "especially" the savior of those that believe, if you believe all are saved? What's the point of believing?
Eusebius' reply:
Believers have a special salvation the rest of mankind do not get. Believers get eonian life (aiwnion zoe) which is life pertaining to the coming two eons (millennium and new earth). The rest of mankind must wait till the consummation of the eons to enter into salvation.
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Eusebius wrote:
then it is a sure thing that your theology is not correct.
If your church or pastor tells you "God will NOT save all mankind even if Christ ransomed all" and "God is NOT the Saviour of all mankind" then you should find a church or pastor that teaches that which God tells him to charge and teach.
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Vizio stated: Or perhaps you are simply reading it incorrectly. And this is YET ANOTHER thread to harp on the idea that you think all are saved. I honestly don't know why it's so important for you to make sure we believe this. Heck...if we're all going to be saved anyway...why not go out and party like crazy?
Eusebius' reply:
It's not difficult to read it at all. It is just difficult to believe it if God doesn't give it to you to believe. Not all mankind are saved at this point in time. Why is it so important to charge and teach it? God must have thought it was important since He told us to charge and teach He will save all mankind and is in fact all mankind's Saviour. Did Jesus party like crazy?
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Eusebius wrote:
Why do you think your pastor has never told you that which God tells him to charge and teach?
Quote:
I do tell my congregation that which God has charged me to teach. It doesn't sound like YOUR pastor does, though. I find that sad.
No you don't. You are disobedient to 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11. Do you have a video telling your congregation God will save all mankind and is all mankind's Saviour? No, I didn't think you do.
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Your interpretation of Matt. 10:39 is suspect.
