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Thanks for being patient and taking the time to post these things, Shana! The truth is there; it just needs to be seen. It is very difficult to explain when a person is coming from a wrong perspective; a perspective where God is not totally sovereign, even though they think that they believe He is. This lowers a person to thoughts where sin holds importance, and fear reigns.
This issue of people thinking that belief in UR is a free pass to sin only shows how little they have delved into thinking these things out. We both know that this is a false accusation, yet the cries continue to be made, because they think that the fear of eternal torment is God's ultimate thing to keep everyone in line, not realizing that the old man is dead and can never possibly follow God, no matter how many fears are thrown at it.
I second that. Thanks Shana, excellent posts!
trump, agreed as well. We see it all the time here. If everyone is saved, why bother with Jesus they say.
I've always believed most people believe in what they want to believe in, even if the facts are staring them in the face.
trump, agreed as well. We see it all the time here. If everyone is saved, why bother with Jesus they say.
I've always believed most people believe in what they want to believe in, even if the facts are staring them in the face.
Those who say that do not understand what they are saying. Christ is our Life and if they understood this they would not be saying such a thing or something along the line of "if all are saved and none end up in eternal fire why don't we just party and live in sin".
Thanks, trumpethim and Zero 7. I hope that the link that I posted will be helpful to someone who is willing to take the time and study this out. I am still studying this too, especially the OT references and connections. I forgot to post the main link to the Barley, Wheat, and Grapes source:
Thanks, trumpethim and Zero 7. I hope that the link that I posted will be helpful to someone who is willing to take the time and study this out. I am still studying this too, especially the OT references and connections. I forgot to post the main link to the Barley, Wheat, and Grapes source:
Thanks again Shana. I'm still studying, and will be until the end of my days here!...and then we can all shift into a higher mode of study in the full light of God! But until then, there is MUCH to learn!
This site above looks like something that will take a lot of time to go through!
Thanks for being patient and taking the time to post these things, Shana! The truth is there; it just needs to be seen. It is very difficult to explain when a person is coming from a wrong perspective; a perspective where God is not totally sovereign, even though they think that they believe He is. This lowers a person to thoughts where sin holds importance, and fear reigns.
This issue of people thinking that belief in UR is a free pass to sin only shows how little they have delved into thinking these things out. We both know that this is a false accusation, yet the cries continue to be made, because they think that the fear of eternal torment is God's ultimate thing to keep everyone in line, not realizing that the old man is dead and can never possibly follow God, no matter how many fears are thrown at it.
definitely not a free pass to sin. if you are a servant of Jesus or further a bond servant of Jesus then you accept Him as your Lord and master. The point is now that you want to follow Jesus. You want to avoid sin. Not because there is a whip at your back but because you love Jesus and you buy into what and who He is.
Now it's not too difficult to see that we still cannot live sin free in the earnest of the Spirit. Thankfully, we are imputed righteousness until the fullness of God. If Paul strived, im sure I will strive. But my peace is in knowing that He who started a good work in me is faithful to see it finished. Not because I deserve it. Not because of the way I behave. But because God is sovereign and has taken it upon Himself to bring His creation into His image.
ps -- Hannibal don't think I don't have love for you too
Hi Alt Thinker, as I shared, I am still studying this out but if you look at Rev. 22: 1, 3 you will see that the Lamb is on the throne with God. My belief is that the Father, who gave all power to the Lamb, is the ultimate source of power. This is why they are described as being on the throne together. The Lamb is still on the throne in Revelation and He has not delivered the kingdom up to the Father because all things are not yet subjected to Him. There are still those who are outside of the city.
As I shared, I believe that Rev. 21 vs. 1-5 refers to the promise of God dwelling with mankind, when there will be no more death, no more tears, no more pain, when He promises to make all things new.
When the lake of fire is in operation, I believe that there will be tears, mourning, and pain due to the judgments of God concerning the works of the flesh and sinfulness that has to be dealt with. This passage in Rev. 21:1-5 is speaking of the time when the lake of fire which is described as the or a second death is no longer in effect.
So you have Rev 22:1-5 happening before Rev 21:1-5?
Quote:
Revelation 22
1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
Quote:
Revelation 21
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
The references to the river and the trees are from Ezekiel 47, part of his long vision about the end of days. The language is nearly identical. Revelation makes many references to Ezekiel’s vision. This part is nearly at the end of Ezekiel, followed only by the elaborate description of what lands are to be given to each tribe. In that description (Ezekiel 47:22) it says that “foreigners” (gentiles, ‘nations’) will live here too and will be considered as “native-born Israelites” and “allotted an inheritance”. So of course the trees are also for the healing of the nations. John of Patmos was a Christian who would wish to emphasize that Christianity and redemption is not just for Jews.
Ezekiel refers to life giving trees. Revelation explicitly mentions the ‘tree of life’. The ‘curse’ that ‘shall be no more’ is mortality, the curse laid on Adam. In short, death has been conquered. But in your scenario that does not happen until later when all sin is purged. Again according to your scenario that is definitely not yet because Jesus (the Lamb) is still on the throne. But Jesus is sharing the throne with God (the Father), who does not come down to dwell among the people until later (Rev. 21).
“And they shall reign forever and ever.” How can they reign if God has not come down yet and Jesus is supposed to give up the throne. “Forever and ever” sounds like a good ending and indeed it is the end of the vision. Immediately after this the angel who showed John this vision is again talking to him in the present. There is no clue that the timeline actually jumps back a chapter. And not a word anywhere about anything more happening to those who went into the lake of fire. The last thing said about them was back in Rev 21 after what you say is the end of the timeline.
Quote:
Revelation 21
15 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
The ones who “will inherit all this” – that is, the just described new Jerusalem – are the “victorious”. Who is not the victorious? The unrighteous who were cast into the fiery lake at the judgment. Jesus is saying that sinners will NOT get this. It is already the end of the timeline (according to you) and Jesus says the unrighteous are screwed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Then I believe that the scene switches and that verses 6-8 stop and then address those who will be overcomers, distinguishing them from those who will not be overcomers. These overcomers will be the sons of God.
6 and He said to me, `It hath been done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End; I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely;
7 he who is overcoming shall inherit all things, and I will be to him -- a God, and he shall be to me -- the son,
8 and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.' (Young's Literal)"
Keep in mind, that I believe that the book of Revelation is very symbolic. I believe that those believers who are raised at the second resurrection are a part of the Holy City, because their names are in the Book of Life. I believe that the Holy City refers to the body of Christ, those whose names are written in the Book of Life. It includes those who have ruled and reigned with Christ before the Great White Throne judgment and it includes those believers who were not a part of the 1,000 reign of Christ, those who were raised along with unbelievers at the second resurrection. What is the purpose of the Great White Throne judgment? It's purpose is to prepare people for their restoration to God. The works of the flesh must die. The sinful man must be destroyed. After the process of being judged by the fiery law of God, with the works of the flesh being destroyed, those who were judged by the fiery law of God will also become a part of the Holy City of God, the body of Christ when the second death is abolished. Chapter 22, vs. 2 speaks of the healing of the nations.
Revelation gives elaborate descriptions of everything including dimensions (like Ezekiel does). Part of what it describes appears in the Olivet Discourse in the three Synoptic Gospels and those are clearly intended literally. I do not see Revelation as all that symbolic. For those raised at the Second Resurrection to be part of the Holy City (presumably you mean the new Jerusalem) contradicts the new Jerusalem not appearing until what you deem to be the final reconciliation (Rev 21:1-5). Making all of this ‘very symbolic’ despite the very detailed and seemingly literal approach allows one to consider all the ‘proof texts’ of UR you supplied also to be very symbolic and not to be taken literally.
So let’s look at those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Consider Psalm 2:8
"Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, and the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
They will be broken before they are healed.
I see it all as a process with the end result being revealed to us by the apostle Paul in passages like the one found in Ephesians 1 and Romans 8.
Eph. 1:9
having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,
10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to *bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;
11 in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,
(Young's Literal)
to bring into one=anakephalaioomai=to be reduced to a head or sum total. In the mid voice-to gather together again in one, to reunite under one head (as in Ephesians 1:10) source-Hebrew Greek Key Word Study Bible
In Ephesians 1:10 God is said ἀνακεφαλαιώσασθαι τά πάντα ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ, to bring together again for himself (note the middle) all things and beings (hitherto disunited by sin) into one combined state of fellowship in Christ, the universal bond (cf. Meyer or Ellicott on Ephesians, the passage cited); (Protevangelium Jacobi 13εἰς ἐμέ ἀνεκεφαλαιώθη ἡ ἱστορία Ἀδάμ, where cf. Thilo).
Romans 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, [i]in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body."
hope = elpis=expectation
If you believe that the second death refers to eternal hell or annihilation, what do you do with the passages of scripture which speak of the final restoration of all to God like the ones shared above? Everything fits together, with no part being left out or disregarded. Would you address what I asked about in Romans 8 now that your question has been addressed?
God bless.
Now let’s put them in context.
Quote:
Psalm 2
7 I will proclaim the LORD’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Does not sound like reconciliation to me. Sounds more like the Armageddon wars.
Quote:
Ephesians 1
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding,9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—[b]to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.[/B[
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
All things in heaven and on earth – no mention of the lake of fire, which is in neither. And it is those included in Christ, those in God’s possession, who will be redeemed.
Quote:
Romans 8
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
There is hope that all will be liberated, but not a guarantee. Life after the resurrection comes from having lived righteously before dying the first time. There is no mention of any other option.
Hello and a hearty thanks to all posters on this thread! I am brand new to CD, but have become convinced in my own mind and heart that Christ Jesus must truly be the Saviour of the whole world and not just a select few, and that we will be and are being saved by fire, because our God IS a consuming fire! I have been reading through the commentaries of the Concordant Publishing Concern on the "New Testament", and have found it especially enlightening and encouraging, as I have also found " Hope Beyond Hell", and many articles and such on theTentmaker website. Many thanks to all for your input!! God bless you all :-) !!
Thanks, trumpethim and Zero 7. I hope that the link that I posted will be helpful to someone who is willing to take the time and study this out. I am still studying this too, especially the OT references and connections. I forgot to post the main link to the Barley, Wheat, and Grapes source:
Thank you for sharing this link Shana! I'm hoping to get whatever I can downloaded in PDF form on my Kindle, maybe here on my Android tablet!? God bless :-)
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