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For the "bible believers" I'm posting this a third time. Twice before on two other sub-threads under Christianity.
It is impossible to argue that the Bible is a unified whole, inerrant in all its parts, inspired by God in every way. It can't be that. There are too many divergences, discrepancies, contradictions; too many alternative ways of looking at the same issue, alternatives that often are at odds with one another (just read the multitude of posts on any subject on these threads). The bible is NOT a unity, it is a massive plurality. God did not "write" the Bible, people did.
Were they inspired? Of course, in the same way some pastors are inspired in their pulpits or singers rendering a beautiful gospel song. They wrote works that can inspire us to think great and important thoughts and to do great and important deeds, to look introspectively at how we might become more of what God wants us to be.
But they were not inspired in the sense that God somehow whispered in their ear to write what they wrote. Even claiming that is so makes God look foolish. Instead I see the foolish as those who have such thoughts.
There is no view in the Bible that can be lifted from its original context, plopped down into a different concept, like 21st century America, and be expected to communicate inerrant revelation. But because there are so many different messages from the Bible--some from the exact same verses of scripture-- a student of scripture can evaluate the appropriateness of each message and see what relevance it may have for life in the present. Some messages will be more appropriate for certain contexts than others. And readers of the Bible should not be afraid to proclaim one message instead of another.
Case in point: Jesus taught us as relates to children: "Suffer the little children to come unto me," and that provides a more useful spiritual guide than Psalm 137, "Blessed is he who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks." I'm not sure ANY fundamentalist who SWEARS ON HIS LIFE that the Bible is inerrant and infallible stands up and recommends that we smash the children of unbelievers against the rocks. Or are there? But if you do not recommend that, then we aren't talking about following ALL the Bible, just those that provide a more useful spiritual guide.
Everything written in the Bible was written in a different world and a different context. The very idea that "Jesus is coming back" is built on the idea that above us, over the clouds, is a space where God lives, and that Jesus has gone up there to live with God. And that one day Jesus will ascend from those clouds--artists have depicted that ancient view on more than one occasion.
But we don't see that as a place for "heaven" now. Above the clouds is more atmosphere and beyond that is space, and further still are billions of stars---in our galaxy alone. The idea of Jesus coming back "down" assumes there is an "up!" We need a modern idiom to reflect what the return of Jesus might mean. I'm not suggesting one, I'm simply pointing out that a 2000 year old idiom doesn't really serve us well today.
Some people claim it is dangerous to "pick and choose" from the Bible. But we already do that as proved by the case in point of "suffer the little children to come unto me." Everything we see and hear, and certainly read, we need to evaluate in light of an experiential experience with the Son of God, not in light of what something says, someone says, or even that our eyes see---that includes the Bible, Shakespeare, Ghandi, Desmond Tutu, or the Dali Lama.
Outstanding witness, powerfully said Warden! We are blessed by its truth and power of the Holy Spirit.
As a dog returns to its vomit, so fools repeat their folly. Do you see a person wise in their own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for them.
As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
The fool says "suffer the little children to come unto me" is no greater a Godly statement than "blessed is he who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks"
Not all scripture is created equally.
Some of it reflects the Son of God. Some of it reflects the hardness of men's hearts.
Let anyone preaching those two verses are the same, mean the same, and come from the same God, let him be accursed.
So, john233, are YOU stating that God dictated both of those lines and that they are to be equally enforced? And if you have to "explain" why one was valid then, but not now--what biblical evidence do you have to make up for it to be so? Were the murderers of innocent children "blessed" by the God of love? Would there ever be a time in your life when you would have respect for a God that demanded you smash the children of, say, ISIS fighters against the rocks? If not, then you, too, are picking and choosing and evaluating what the Bible says.
We are only debating at what level the evaluation takes place.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 02-28-2015 at 03:02 AM..
The fool says "suffer the little children to come unto me" is no greater a Godly statement than "blessed is he who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks"
Not all scripture is created equally.
Some of it reflects the Son of God. Some of it reflects the hardness of men's hearts.
Let anyone preaching those two verses are the same, mean the same, and come from the same God, let him be accursed.
So, john233, are YOU stating that God dictated both of those lines and that they are to be equally enforced? And if you have to "explain" why one was valid then, but not now--what biblical evidence do you have to make up for it to be so? Were the murderers of innocent children "blessed" by the God of love? Would there ever be a time in your life when you would have respect for a God that demanded you smash the children of, say, ISIS fighters against the rocks? If not, then you, too, are picking and choosing and evaluating what the Bible says.
We are only debating at what level the evaluation takes place.
Actually,
1.By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat, we also wept when we remembered Zion. א.עַל נַהֲרוֹת | בָּבֶל שָׁם יָשַׁבְנוּ גַּם בָּכִינוּ בְּזָכְרֵנוּ אֶת צִיּוֹן:
By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat: when we went down into exile, and Nebuchadnezzar asked them to sing for him as they used to sing on the stage.
2.On willows in its midst we hung our harps. ב.עַל עֲרָבִים בְּתוֹכָהּ תָּלִינוּ כִּנֹּרוֹתֵינוּ:
On willows: Willows of the brook.
3.For there our captors asked us for words of song and our tormentors [asked of us] mirth, "Sing for us of the song of Zion." ג.כִּי שָׁם שְׁאֵלוּנוּ שׁוֹבֵינוּ דִּבְרֵי שִׁיר וְתוֹלָלֵינוּ שִׂמְחָה שִׁירוּ לָנוּ מִשִּׁיר צִיּוֹן:
and our tormentors mirth: Heb. ותוללינו, kinds of musical instruments that they hang up. This is how Menachem interpreted it (p. 184): וְתוֹלָלֵינוּ שמחה, and our musical instruments of joy. וְתוֹלָלֵינוּ can also be interpreted as: our enemies who would scorn and mock and joke with us, an expression of (102:9): “those who scorn me (מהוללי) swear by me.â€
4."How shall we sing the song of the Lord on foreign soil?" ד.אֵיךְ נָשִׁיר אֶת שִׁיר יְהֹוָה עַל אַדְמַת נֵכָר:
5.If I forget you, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget [its skill]. ה.אִם אֶשְׁכָּחֵךְ יְרוּשָׁלִָם תִּשְׁכַּח יְמִינִי:
If I forget you, O Jerusalem: The congregation of Israel says this.
6.May my tongue cling to my palate, if I do not remember you, if I do not bring up Jerusalem at the beginning of my joy. ו.תִּדְבַּק לְשׁוֹנִי | לְחִכִּי אִם לֹא אֶזְכְּרֵכִי אִם לֹא אַעֲלֶה אֶת יְרוּשָׁלִַם עַל רֹאשׁ שִׂמְחָתִי:
If I do not bring up Jerusalem: The remembrance of the mourning of its destruction I shall bring up to mention at the head of every joyous occasion of mine.
7.Remember, O Lord, for the sons of Edom, the day of Jerusalem, those who say, "Raze it, raze it, down to its foundation!" ז.זְכֹר יְהֹוָה | לִבְנֵי אֱדוֹם אֵת יוֹם יְרוּשָׁלִָם הָאֹמְרִים עָרוּ | עָרוּ עַד הַיְסוֹד בָּהּ:
Raze it: Heb. עָרוּ is an expression of destruction, and so (Jer. 51:58): “The broad walls of Babylon shall be overthrown (תתערער) ,†and so (Hab. 3:13): “baring (ערות) the foundation.†It is used only for something whose roots are uprooted from the ground.
8.O Daughter of Babylon, who is destined to be plundered, praiseworthy is he who repays you your recompense that you have done to us. ח.בַּת בָּבֶל הַשְּׁדוּדָה אַשְׁרֵי שֶׁיְשַׁלֶּם לָךְ אֶת גְּמוּלֵךְ שֶׁגָּמַלְתְּ לָנוּ:
9.Praiseworthy is he who will take and dash your infants against the rock.
Here is an interesting opinion on Psalms 137...
Psalm 137
If you think Russian baby yoga is child abuse, this is not the psalm for you. It starts off as a lament for the Israelite exile in Babylon, which is fine, but then the last two verses are addressed to Babylonian mothers O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. (v. 8-9). I haven't talked about Jerry Falwell's bible for a long time, but this is his commentary on this Psalm: 'The vividness of the final verse is justified if one remembers a simple fact: baby Babylonians grow up to be big Babylonians. The hope that their babies will die is the prayer that no new Babylonian generation will arise seeking the worldwide dominion through cruel oppression.' Proof yet again that supposedly 'pro life' Christians only care about babies so long as they're inside their mothers' bodies, but don't give a hoot once they're out in the world.
It was not HaShem Who commanded them to dash babies against the rocks...The WRITER of the Psalms states the those who do this to the Babylonian babies are praiseworthy...It does not say that HaShem would bless them for this action...
Warden, you just keep posting false and shallow accusations and statistics that you do not create or understand the meaning behind. Do you have no wisdom of your own to think for yourself? The things you are saying may seem intelligent to you, but its only because you haven't thought for yourself on these topics.
Your posts are all taken from books and articles that you did not write. Plagiarism is against forum rules and very annoying in a conversation, because it impossible to discuss something that someone posts but does not understand. A little plagiarism is acceptable, a little sampling is acceptable, but not the majority of your posts. You do not need to "Post plagiarism for the third time". It doesn't matter how many times you post it, the 3rd time is not the charm that magically makes your shallow secondhand arguments valid. I do not believe you "read the Bible everyday". Or else you would realize why your accusations are silly.
If your going to post someone elses work, that is fine. But at least try to understand it first. I recommending trying to find the answer to these accusations before you post them rather just accepting them as fact.
Again, stop bringing the actions of sinful men into a conversation about God and truth. I don't care what ISIS does, it doesn't affect what is true in this world and what is right. ISIS is just a ploy to steal more rights from the citizens of the world. Just like what Bush did with WMDs and now our current government is doing the same thing. It is a created entity to cause you to be fearful. Are you really afraid of muslims in pickup trucks invading America?
I have faith in Jesus Christ, not the Bible. I search the Bible daily to find what good can come from it in its testimony about Jesus.
.....
My faith is in a God that is able to overcome some of the extraordinarily awful writings of those who claimed to believe Him.
What curse will I have to carry, if I do not believe the same thing as you or anyone else for that matter?
None. Just don't go around with empty arguments purposely trying to draw people away from God with a pseudo-Christian gospel that is not Biblical.
Christ + Bible = Christianity.
Christ + worldly wisdom and no Bible = something other than Christianity
You can't know about Christ apart from the Bible. Feelings and opinions do not count as divine insight
Warden, you just keep posting false and shallow accusations and statistics that you do not create or understand the meaning behind. Do you have no wisdom of your own to think for yourself? The things you are saying may seem intelligent to you, but its only because you haven't thought for yourself on these topics.
Your posts are all taken from books and articles that you did not write. Plagiarism is against forum rules and very annoying in a conversation, because it impossible to discuss something that someone posts but does not understand. A little plagiarism is acceptable, a little sampling is acceptable, but not the majority of your posts. You do not need to "Post plagiarism for the third time". It doesn't matter how many times you post it, the 3rd time is not the charm that magically makes your shallow secondhand arguments valid. I do not believe you "read the Bible everyday". Or else you would realize why your accusations are silly.
If your going to post someone elses work, that is fine. But at least try to understand it first. I recommending trying to find the answer to these accusations before you post them rather just accepting them as fact.
Again, stop bringing the actions of sinful men into a conversation about God and truth. I don't care what ISIS does, it doesn't affect what is true in this world and what is right. ISIS is just a ploy to steal more rights from the citizens of the world. Just like what Bush did with WMDs and now our current government is doing the same thing. It is a created entity to cause you to be fearful. Are you really afraid of muslims in pickup trucks invading America?
Read up on the Hegelian Dialectic
Christian Fundamentalism is just a ploy to steal more rights from the world. I equate it with ISIS which seeks to do the same thing--impose religious authority on everyone--and in one fashion or another (not always guns and bombs) destroy opposition and force compliance.
You are the "Erudite" in the movie "Divergent." Those of us who are accepting of "all factions" are the Divergents whom the Erudite fear and want to destroy.
We will find every possible way to discredit the lies of fundamentalist idolaters. You are unable to adapt to a changing world. Those who love God know morality grows and isn't stuck in a 2000-2800 year old book written by dozens of men with different views, differing perspectives--even different conclusions.
Your brand of Christianity is the most dangerous that has existed in America since the Puritans tried to impose their own religion on everyone.
I've urged you to educate yourself, but from your posts I can see you are afraid to try. Then look around you and see how much evil is arising from bible worship. I can post some videos of Westboro Baptist Church ("true bible believers") which is only slightly further down the same path you are on.
Quit worshipping the book and worship the one it points to in spirit and in truth.
None. Just don't go around with empty arguments purposely trying to draw people away from God with a pseudo-Christian gospel that is not Biblical.
Christ + Bible = Christianity.
Christ + worldly wisdom and no Bible = something other than Christianity
You can't know about Christ apart from the Bible. Feelings and opinions do not count as divine insight
One does not need to know the term "Christ", or the bible, to know about the Christ, or to know the Christ.
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