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john233 - Your last 3 posts have been great testimonials for the Bible giving the true basis for human morality [righteousness] versus immorality [sin].
I do not believe modern translations of the Bible are infallible in all their individual words, but I do still believe that the Bible, as a whole, is the inspired Word of God. Thanks for your faithful stand for Biblical Christianity..
I do not agree with all the loose teachings of modern "Christaniity" which teaches grace without OBEDIENCE. I believe Satan is quite pleased with this watering down of true Christianity.
Robert you've given ME thumbs up, too!! Are you now repenting of that? The bible, like people has many different facets and we can agree with some things and disagree with others--because that bible was written by very human individuals. Inspired, yes. Dictated to, no.
I agree that PERSONAL obedience is tantamount to following Christ as He taught. I disagree however that the bible--particularly in English--can in anyway get us as close to what the authors intended as the original Hebrew and Greek.
Further, there is simply TONS of evidence that scripture from Old to New has been tampered with by scribes over the centuries. Not a 'little' evidence--TONS of it. And that's why we can't swallow everything stated hook line and sinker.
One of my favorite stories in John is that of the woman caught in adultery. But even very conservative scholars like Daniel Wallace, professor of NT at Dallas Theological Seminary, admits it was never in the original writing. The translations we have in English came about prior to the discovery of "older" texts without that story. It certainly is a good one. It may have come down from a separate oral tradition. It definitely reflects the Jesus of the synoptic gospels--BUT IT WAS NOT WRITTEN BY THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR OF THE GOSPEL OF JOHN.
Likewise verses 9-16 of the last chapter of Mark are not in the oldest texts which we now have. In addition, the linguistic style (in Greek) is different from the rest of that gospel. IT WAS WRITTEN BY A SCRIBE AT A LATER DATE. (P.S. Daniel Wallace agrees with this assessment of Mark, also--and I'm not a fan of Daniel Wallace.)
The only thing we can understand is that a lot of people wanted to get their two cents in about scripture over the centuries. And that's why a scholarly study is necessary for anyone who wants a true knowledge of the Word of God. It can't be done with Sunday School lessons which have hurt Christianity more than helped. Pastors, many who studied these things in seminary, are guilty of literally HIDING the facts from their congregations. Mostly they prove that they would rather stay employed than give bible lovers any sense of insecurity--which is what such knowledge does.
But faith does not exist without doubt. If no doubt exists then it becomes fact. And if fact is what you desire, then faith is not a possibility.
Actually, I believe in the DOING message of Jesus Christ, not the "faith only" message of Paul. Jesus message was basically that faith RESULTS in good works (as his brother James attested to). I don't beat people over the head with how great the Bible is, I show it in the love and care extended to--oh, the poor, the destitute, the hungry, the drug users--even homosexuals whom I treat NOT as my equal--but better than myself. That's called practicing the love of God.
Instead you have decided it is better to beat people over the head with how bad the Bible is. Paul in no way preached faith only lol. He just made it clear that we are saved by faith, not by our works as the Jews had come to believe. He did not mean to say, faith is unaccompanied by action and change of heart.
Only Mike555 believes that
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Sinners are converted by example and love, not by preaching and "biblical" moralizing. But our morality HAS grown over the centuries.
I do not believe mankind is any further than we were in the OT. We have deceived ourselves into thinking that. We just have different circumstances in our lives. If those circumstances were to change, so would our behavior and "morality".
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You defend the Bible for "changing" from the OT ideas of "limited" slavery to treating one as a brother in Christ. Nowhere in the Bible is there a command to FREE slaves.
Slavery back then was a reality, sinful men were a reality, and there was no way to declare bankruptcy. Also, servitude was a good way to avoid being slaughtered when wars broke out. It was not necessarily your definition of slavery. The Bible just gave rules governing the fair treatment of servants.
Many who were poor would even commit themselves to servitude. Slaves were commanded to be released every 7 years for Israelites and every Jubilee year, every person was commanded to be be freed. Regardless of debt they still owed.
If people liked their position as a servant to a particular person, they could chose to stay.
Leviticus 25
‘If a foreigner residing among you becomes rich and any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to the foreigner or to a member of the foreigner’s clan, 48 they retain the right of redemption after they have sold themselves. One of their relatives may redeem them: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in their clan may redeem them. Or if they prosper, they may redeem themselves. 50 They and their buyer are to count the time from the year they sold themselves up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for their release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired worker for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, they must pay for their redemption a larger share of the price paid for them. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, they are to compute that and pay for their redemption accordingly. 53 They are to be treated as workers hired from year to year; you must see to it that those to whom they owe service do not rule over them ruthlessly.
54 “‘Even if someone is not redeemed in any of these ways, they and their children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55 for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 15:22
If any of your people—Hebrew men or women—sell themselves to you and serve you six years, in the seventh year you must let them go free.
Exodus 21:2
“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything."
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I don't go to church anymore. Every time I have with ONE exception in the last 20 years I've grown angry at the hardness of hearts found in church goers. The one exception was a pastor who lost half his congregation when he told them he was going to start a bus ministry on Sundays for the homeless and hungry--bringing them to church and having the congregation feed them a decent meal.
Agreed, I have not found a congregation that I wanted anything to do with. I'll keep looking
I do not believe modern translations of the Bible are infallible in all their individual words
This is a good clarification. When people say the Bible is the infallible Word of God, they are not necessarily saying that every exact translation of every word is infallible. That is not logical. What they are saying is that as a whole, nothing has been altered from the original manuscripts and that God said exactly what He meant to say in those manuscripts. Any minor variations can be analyzed and accounted for.
Some of the widely known manuscripts which are used comparatively to eliminate scribal errors and verify the accuracy of the Word of God:
Septuagint, or LXX,
Masoretic Text,
Allepo Codex,
Freer Greek Manuscript V,
Origen's Hexapla,
Codex Leningradensis,
Chester Beatty Papyrus II,
John Rylands Manuscript,
Codex Vaticanus,
Codex Sinaiticus,
Codex Washingtonianus,
Bodmer Papyri and Bodmer Papyri II,
Codex Alexandrinus,
Codex Ephraemi,
Oxyrhynchus Papyri,
Itala Version,
Wurzburg Palimpsest Codex
Lyons Codex,
Jerome's Vulgate,
And if that is not enough to convince someone of the accuracy and divine authorship of the Word of God. I would highly recommend studying the prophetic claims of the Bible and all of their fulfillments.
Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. These involve very specific things. Giving names, descriptions and even exact times
God Himself gave us the standard by which to judge prophets in Deuteronomy. The Bible, God's Word, lives up to that standard in every way
Deuteronomy 18
But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
Further, there is simply TONS of evidence that scripture from Old to New has been tampered with by scribes over the centuries. Not a 'little' evidence--TONS of it. And that's why we can't swallow everything stated hook line and sinker.
Bleh I get tired of feeling like I am picking on people, but seriously....
Where do you come up with this stuff? What is this TONS of evidence?
The reality is there is no tangible evidence to suggest this whatsoever
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But faith does not exist without doubt. If no doubt exists then it becomes fact. And if fact is what you desire, then faith is not a possibility.
And faith in no way has to or should be blind. Faith does not mean willful ignorance. It means believing that God is exactly who He said He is, and acting out of that belief.
Belief – An opinion or judgement in which a person is fully persuaded.
Robert you've given ME thumbs up, too!! Are you now repenting of that? The bible, like people has many different facets and we can agree with some things and disagree with others--because that bible was written by very human individuals. Inspired, yes. Dictated to, no.
I agree that PERSONAL obedience is tantamount to following Christ as He taught. I disagree however that the bible--particularly in English--can in anyway get us as close to what the authors intended as the original Hebrew and Greek.
Further, there is simply TONS of evidence that scripture from Old to New has been tampered with by scribes over the centuries. Not a 'little' evidence--TONS of it. And that's why we can't swallow everything stated hook line and sinker.
One of my favorite stories in John is that of the woman caught in adultery. But even very conservative scholars like Daniel Wallace, professor of NT at Dallas Theological Seminary, admits it was never in the original writing. The translations we have in English came about prior to the discovery of "older" texts without that story. It certainly is a good one. It may have come down from a separate oral tradition. It definitely reflects the Jesus of the synoptic gospels--BUT IT WAS NOT WRITTEN BY THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR OF THE GOSPEL OF JOHN.
Likewise verses 9-16 of the last chapter of Mark are not in the oldest texts which we now have. In addition, the linguistic style (in Greek) is different from the rest of that gospel. IT WAS WRITTEN BY A SCRIBE AT A LATER DATE. (P.S. Daniel Wallace agrees with this assessment of Mark, also--and I'm not a fan of Daniel Wallace.)
The only thing we can understand is that a lot of people wanted to get their two cents in about scripture over the centuries. And that's why a scholarly study is necessary for anyone who wants a true knowledge of the Word of God. It can't be done with Sunday School lessons which have hurt Christianity more than helped. Pastors, many who studied these things in seminary, are guilty of literally HIDING the facts from their congregations. Mostly they prove that they would rather stay employed than give bible lovers any sense of insecurity--which is what such knowledge does.
But faith does not exist without doubt. If no doubt exists then it becomes fact. And if fact is what you desire, then faith is not a possibility.
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Originally Posted by john233
Bleh I get tired of feeling like I am picking on people, but seriously....
Where do you come up with this stuff? What is this TONS of evidence?
The reality is there is no tangible evidence to suggest this whatsoever
And faith in no way has to or should be blind. Faith does not mean willful ignorance. It means believing that God is exactly who He said He is, and acting out of that belief.
Belief – An opinion or judgement in which a person is fully persuaded.
Faith = ( Belief + Action + Confidence )
Warden . . . you do a remarkable and beautiful job of presenting the kind of Christianity that I believe in and follow (with some minor disagreements as you know). But it is impossible to communicate with those who have not studied (or refuse to acknowledge) the extensive evidence in the current field of Bible scholarship. You have amply displayed your knowledge many, many times . . . but the blind believers will simply dismiss it out of hand, as John does here. There is no reasoning with unreasoning credulity, my brother.
Since you also hold his beliefs... Why don't you provide evidence that the collective Word of God from the body of existing manuscripts has been altered, tampered, edited etc
Rather than sit around on a Christian forum and make these absurd baseless claims to draw people away from God
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