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Old 02-28-2015, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Actually,

1.By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat, we also wept when we remembered Zion. א.עַל נַהֲרוֹת | בָּבֶל שָׁם יָשַׁבְנוּ גַּם בָּכִינוּ בְּזָכְרֵנוּ אֶת צִיּוֹן:
By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat: when we went down into exile, and Nebuchadnezzar asked them to sing for him as they used to sing on the stage.


2.On willows in its midst we hung our harps. ב.עַל עֲרָבִים בְּתוֹכָהּ תָּלִינוּ כִּנֹּרוֹתֵינוּ:
On willows: Willows of the brook.


3.For there our captors asked us for words of song and our tormentors [asked of us] mirth, "Sing for us of the song of Zion." ג.כִּי שָׁם שְׁאֵלוּנוּ שׁוֹבֵינוּ דִּבְרֵי שִׁיר וְתוֹלָלֵינוּ שִׂמְחָה שִׁירוּ לָנוּ מִשִּׁיר צִיּוֹן:
and our tormentors mirth: Heb. ותוללינו, kinds of musical instruments that they hang up. This is how Menachem interpreted it (p. 184): וְתוֹלָלֵינוּ שמחה, and our musical instruments of joy. וְתוֹלָלֵינוּ can also be interpreted as: our enemies who would scorn and mock and joke with us, an expression of (102:9): “those who scorn me (מהוללי) swear by me.”


4."How shall we sing the song of the Lord on foreign soil?" ד.אֵיךְ נָשִׁיר אֶת שִׁיר יְהֹוָה עַל אַדְמַת נֵכָר:
5.If I forget you, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget [its skill]. ה.אִם אֶשְׁכָּחֵךְ יְרוּשָׁלִָם תִּשְׁכַּח יְמִינִי:
If I forget you, O Jerusalem: The congregation of Israel says this.


6.May my tongue cling to my palate, if I do not remember you, if I do not bring up Jerusalem at the beginning of my joy. ו.תִּדְבַּק לְשׁוֹנִי | לְחִכִּי אִם לֹא אֶזְכְּרֵכִי אִם לֹא אַעֲלֶה אֶת יְרוּשָׁלִַם עַל רֹאשׁ שִׂמְחָתִי:
If I do not bring up Jerusalem: The remembrance of the mourning of its destruction I shall bring up to mention at the head of every joyous occasion of mine.


7.Remember, O Lord, for the sons of Edom, the day of Jerusalem, those who say, "Raze it, raze it, down to its foundation!" ז.זְכֹר יְהֹוָה | לִבְנֵי אֱדוֹם אֵת יוֹם יְרוּשָׁלִָם הָאֹמְרִים עָרוּ | עָרוּ עַד הַיְסוֹד בָּהּ:
Raze it: Heb. עָרוּ is an expression of destruction, and so (Jer. 51:58): “The broad walls of Babylon shall be overthrown (תתערער) ,” and so (Hab. 3:13): “baring (ערות) the foundation.” It is used only for something whose roots are uprooted from the ground.


8.O Daughter of Babylon, who is destined to be plundered, praiseworthy is he who repays you your recompense that you have done to us. ח.בַּת בָּבֶל הַשְּׁדוּדָה אַשְׁרֵי שֶׁיְשַׁלֶּם לָךְ אֶת גְּמוּלֵךְ שֶׁגָּמַלְתְּ לָנוּ:
9.Praiseworthy is he who will take and dash your infants against the rock.


Here is an interesting opinion on Psalms 137...


Psalm 137

If you think Russian baby yoga is child abuse, this is not the psalm for you. It starts off as a lament for the Israelite exile in Babylon, which is fine, but then the last two verses are addressed to Babylonian mothers O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. (v. 8-9). I haven't talked about Jerry Falwell's bible for a long time, but this is his commentary on this Psalm: 'The vividness of the final verse is justified if one remembers a simple fact: baby Babylonians grow up to be big Babylonians. The hope that their babies will die is the prayer that no new Babylonian generation will arise seeking the worldwide dominion through cruel oppression.' Proof yet again that supposedly 'pro life' Christians only care about babies so long as they're inside their mothers' bodies, but don't give a hoot once they're out in the world.


It was not HaShem Who commanded them to dash babies against the rocks...The WRITER of the Psalms states the those who do this to the Babylonian babies are praiseworthy...It does not say that HaShem would bless them for this action...
Richard, a very nice summation. But the exact point is that not all scripture can be viewed "literally." Muslims use some of the OT including Psalms, and RADICAL Muslims see Psalm 137:8-9 quite literally.

My point is that if we weigh everything in the Bible in terms of Jesus Christ there is "literally" no ugliness, hatefulness, or exclusivity that can be deemed from God--and must instead be understood allegorically or figuratively. Literal, inerrant, and infallible Christians pose every bit as much spiritual danger (and sometimes are complicit for some of the same physical violence) to the world as radical Muslims.
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Old 02-28-2015, 11:48 AM
 
335 posts, read 220,387 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Christian Fundamentalism is just a ploy to steal more rights from the world.
Christians who know God will not be trying to change the world through laws.
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Old 02-28-2015, 11:51 AM
 
335 posts, read 220,387 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Richard, a very nice summation. But the exact point is that not all scripture can be viewed "literally." Muslims use some of the OT including Psalms, and RADICAL Muslims see Psalm 137:8-9 quite literally.

My point is that if we weigh everything in the Bible in terms of Jesus Christ there is "literally" no ugliness, hatefulness, or exclusivity that can be deemed from God--and must instead be understood allegorically or figuratively.
No Christian can use the Bible to justify any violence or even hateful thoughts.
The Old Testament is not allegorical it is historical. It was a time before Christ and the Holy Spirit and as such, God interacted with man differently
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Old 02-28-2015, 11:52 AM
 
335 posts, read 220,387 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
One does not need to know the term "Christ", or the bible, to know about the Christ, or to know the Christ.
What would you be able to know about Christ apart from the Bible?
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Old 02-28-2015, 11:55 AM
 
Location: USA
17,164 posts, read 11,414,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john233 View Post
What would you be able to know about Christ apart from the Bible?
Christ... The word/message/spirit of God who is love ... is available to all, and recognizable by the good fruit it produces.
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Old 02-28-2015, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,401,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
What curse will I have to carry, if I do not believe the same thing as you or anyone else for that matter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by john233 View Post
None. Just don't go around with empty arguments purposely trying to draw people away from God with a pseudo-Christian gospel that is not Biblical.

Christ + Bible = Christianity. Christ + worldly wisdom and no Bible = something other than Christianity

You can't know about Christ apart from the Bible. Feelings and opinions do not count as divine insight
Christianity is sycretistic, so who is it that's drawing people, after their own likeness.
If, it's not the perceptions and doctrines of various men throughout time?

But you are correct about one thing, your "feelings and opinions, do not count as divine insight."

Last edited by Jerwade; 02-28-2015 at 12:13 PM..
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Old 02-28-2015, 12:13 PM
 
63,929 posts, read 40,194,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
The fool says "suffer the little children to come unto me" is no greater a Godly statement than "blessed is he who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks"
Not all scripture is created equally.
Some of it reflects the Son of God. Some of it reflects the hardness of men's hearts.
Let anyone preaching those two verses are the same, mean the same, and come from the same God, let him be accursed.
So, john233, are YOU stating that God dictated both of those lines and that they are to be equally enforced? And if you have to "explain" why one was valid then, but not now--what biblical evidence do you have to make up for it to be so? Were the murderers of innocent children "blessed" by the God of love? Would there ever be a time in your life when you would have respect for a God that demanded you smash the children of, say, ISIS fighters against the rocks? If not, then you, too, are picking and choosing and evaluating what the Bible says.
We are only debating at what level the evaluation takes place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by john233 View Post
Warden, you just keep posting false and shallow accusations and statistics that you do not create or understand the meaning behind. Do you have no wisdom of your own to think for yourself? The things you are saying may seem intelligent to you, but its only because you haven't thought for yourself on these topics.
Your posts are all taken from books and articles that you did not write. Plagiarism is against forum rules and very annoying in a conversation, because it impossible to discuss something that someone posts but does not understand. A little plagiarism is acceptable, a little sampling is acceptable, but not the majority of your posts. You do not need to "Post plagiarism for the third time". It doesn't matter how many times you post it, the 3rd time is not the charm that magically makes your shallow secondhand arguments valid. I do not believe you "read the Bible everyday". Or else you would realize why your accusations are silly.
If your going to post someone elses work, that is fine. But at least try to understand it first. I recommending trying to find the answer to these accusations before you post them rather just accepting them as fact.
These are serious accusations and you have provided no proof whatsoever. Either cite the works plagiarized from or withdraw these hateful accusations. Your inability to answer Warden's questions or refute his posts does not entitle you to defame him. I suggest you focus on answering his questions and refuting his posts.
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Old 02-28-2015, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
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Here's how fundamentalists live up to the OP's thought that many Christians are deceived and are on their way to destruction (not sure if he means in this world or the next--but certainly in this one).

Dr. Dennis Bratcher is a retired Professor of Old Testament. The following are excerpts from his long essay on "The Modern Inerrancy Debate." (CRI/Voice, Institute 2013)

There are a variety of theories of inspiration (of Scripture), and I won’t take the time to deal with them all. The basic issue in talking about inspiration is the balance between the dual nature of Scripture, the balance between God’s role and humans’ role. Usually inspiration has to do with the work of God in the process. In Christian tradition, this is usually connected with the work of the Holy Spirit as the agent of truth in the world. Thus, inspiration can be conceived, in some way, as "in-Spirited" (cf 2 Tim 3:16-17, 2 Pet 1:20-21). But this does not in itself resolve the question of balance.

On the one pole are dictation and verbal theories that affirm nearly 100% God. Usually, these are heavily influenced both by an absolute sovereignty of God model that allows little human input into anything since humans are totally contaminated by sin and cannot be trusted (with roots in Augustinian influenced Calvinism), as well as by the philosophical model mentioned earlier that equates revelation with all truth. In these views, Scripture is equated with the mind of God, and He is seen as the primary author of Scripture. Here, the physical text itself is seen as the locus of inspiration and, indeed, revelation of absolute truth.

On the other pole are elevation theories that affirm nearly 100% human. Usually, these are heavily influenced either by rationalistic, naturalistic, or deistic models that do not see God active in the world, or by atheistic or agnostic thinking that will not acknowledge anything other than humanity. In this view, Scripture is just a good book reflecting the same kind of elevated human insight that, for example, might be found in Shakespeare, J. R. Tolkien, or Star Wars. Here, the writers are the source, and most often the only source, of the writing.

Between these poles are various blends of the two. Interestingly enough, theories toward either pole claim plenary ("full") inspiration depending on whether the physical text itself is seen as fully inspired or only the writers are inspired. In any case, the mediating position is usually termed dynamic inspiration, which tries to balance the role of God and humans. In many of these perspectives (with various nuances) it is not the text that is inspired but the writers themselves, or the message. However, what the writers understand is not solely a product of their own thinking but is enabled by the activity of God, which distances this from the elevation pole.
---------------------------
I see the locus of inspiration neither in the physical text itself nor in single writers, but in the message of Scripture, what it tells us about God, about ourselves, and about how we relate to God. These three factors lie at the heart of the nature of Scripture, its purpose, and its overarching content. It is not just inspiration of God in the message as a collection of facts, but inspiration operative in the message as a witness to the transforming and enabling power of God’s grace in the lives of people!

The people do not pass on eternal, absolute truths devoid of any context. They tell the story of God, which God has revealed to them and helped them understand, but they tell it in their own way. They translate God’s revelation into the language, metaphors, symbols, liturgy, and literature through which they can bear witness to God’s truth, and in which other people can hear and understand the testimony.

However, Scripture does not yet arise at this point. Inspiration is not the one time action of God that is only related to the original revelatory event, or to a posited "original" author. Inspiration is the ongoing work of God (Christians would say the Holy Spirit) whereby He continues to help people understand the message, the testimony. So inspiration is not static to be located at a specific point in time any more than God is static.
-----------------------
But we affirm that God has so enabled the process that even with all the vagaries of history through which the communities of Faith have passed, with all the difficulties of transmission of the story, even with all the inaccuracies and discrepancies in Scripture that we now have, we still have a reliable and trustworthy witness to the truth of God. It is not because of an inerrant text that this is so. it is because of God and his continued presence with the community and its testimony!

That is why I think that any reading or study of Scripture should begin with the prayer, "Lord, help me understand." It is an acknowledgment of that dynamic quality of inspiration, and a confession that finally, after we have done all we can do to understand the human dimension of Scripture, it is God who brings the testimony alive, and makes it a living and active word!

And yet, the form, the vehicle of that message is dependent upon the people themselves. So, there are cultural oddities. There are personal idiosyncrasies. There are discrepancies of fact, of science, of grammar, of spelling, of data. There are different perspectives from different people from different cultures on different continents over a span of 1,800 years. There are inconsistencies in historical data, in the use of symbols, in views about future events. Sometimes prophets were wrong in how they translated their understanding about God into their interpretation of historical events. Sometimes they even had to change their prophecies (See Ezekiel and the Oracles Against Tyre).

Sometimes leaders had to go far beyond the old law codes, and sometimes had to invent new responses to ethical challenges (Nehemiah; "Applied Torah" in Torah as Holiness). Sometimes new understandings challenged old orthodoxies (Job, Jonah). Sometimes in one historical situation one view was valid, and in another historical situation the opposite perspective was valid (Deuteronomy, Jeremiah). Sometimes they emphasized one aspect and sometimes another, and sometimes those are not directly reconcilable (Proverbs, Leviticus). As Walter Brueggemann put it, there are voices and counter voices, as very human people living in a very real world try to live and apply what they have come to understand about God in radically different and constantly changing contexts. After all, the story is in human words.

But it is God’s story! Or perhaps better, it is a story of God! For me, affirming a dynamic view of inspiration allows the truth about Himself that God has revealed to us to be faithfully and accurately preserved by the community of Faith. This takes seriously the faith confession that God is active in the world, that He reveals Himself to humanity, and that there is a dimension to God that cannot be accessed by human reason or experience. In this sense, the Bible is God’s word.

However, a dynamic model that sees inspiration of Scripture as a process operating within the community of faith rather than a one time revelation of absolute truth also allows us to examine all the evidence within Scripture honestly without need for apology or rationalization. So, I can conclude that Moses did not write the Pentateuch as we now have it (JEDP: Sources in the Pentateuch), or that Ezekiel was dead wrong in his prediction about the destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar (Ezekiel and the Oracles against Tyre), or that Isaiah did not have Jesus in mind in Isaiah 7 or 9 (Immanuel in Isaiah and Matthew), without in any way whatsoever taking anything away from the message of Scripture, from its witness to God’s revelation of Himself, and the resulting call for us to respond to that revelation.

This demonstrates that the "Battle for the Bible" and the almost obsessive preoccupation with the inerrancy of Scripture among some strands of American Protestantism is not nor has been an important concern to churches in the Wesleyan tradition. As heirs of the Reformation, Scripture played a central role in those traditions. But the affirmations were content to focus on the message of Scripture that bears witness to the saving and transforming work of God in the world. That remains today in those traditions the primary emphasis in relation to the authority and reliability of Scripture.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.crivoice.org/inerrant.html

john223, read and learn. This man, Dennis Bratcher, has studied Hebrew and spent his life immersed in both teaching and inspiring others in the Wesleyan tradition--MY tradition.

Don't worry about me plagiarizing, I've exchanged several e-mails with Dr. Bratcher last year. He is a wonderful, intellectual Christian and protects the Bible in the way it should be protected--and not as an idol.

You might try reading another of his essays co-written with Dean Nelson, "How to Use and Not Abuse, the Bible," in I Believe: Now Tell Me Why, Beacon Hill, 1994, 30-41.
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Old 02-28-2015, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,728,352 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
These are serious accusations and you have provided no proof whatsoever. Either cite the works plagiarized from or withdraw these hateful accusations. Your inability to answer Warden's questions or refute his posts does not entitle you to defame him. I suggest you focus on answering his questions and refuting his posts.
I did borrow some of that material that I had handwritten down some time ago. I'm just not sure where it came from in my extensive library. Perhaps Bart Ehrman, but I'm simply not certain. I don't usually put the author at the bottom of my notes since I keep them primarily for personal use and it is more frequent to provide links to internet sources than to dig through REAL books.
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Old 02-28-2015, 12:28 PM
 
335 posts, read 220,387 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I did borrow some of that material that I had handwritten down some time ago. I'm just not sure where it came from in my extensive library. Perhaps Bart Ehrman, but I'm simply not certain. I don't usually put the author at the bottom of my notes since I keep them primarily for personal use and it is more frequent to provide links to internet sources than to dig through REAL books.
Ok Warden, I will read it maybe later tonight. Waiting for my wife to go look for a vehicle to purchase today
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