I believe in God but I'm very skeptical of the bible (church, gnostic)
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It's helped you so much that you have to continue to tell Christians. You don't feel confident enough to live without some type of affirmation that you gain from another belief system's 'faults'.
How exactly am I supposed to trust a book that has notoriously been tampered with several times throughout history?
I'm a little bit curious about your background. Did you grow up in the church? When did you get to the point where you started questioning the validity of the Bible?
You continue to deliberately give misinformation about what I believe. I think just about everyone knows that the Comma Johanneum is not original. Furthermore, the doctrine of the Trinity was well established by the 4th century which was long before the Comma Johannuem was added by Erasmus in the 16th century. That of course means that the doctrine of the Trinity does not rely upon the Comma Johanneum.
Do not attempt to make my beliefs an issue. Do not attempt to make this about me. The only issue here is what Dr. Wallace stated in the two video's concerning the reliability of the New Testament manuscripts which I provided in reply to the OP's question. Video's which you obviously have not listened to.
It was the fourth century---Christians in the first couple of hundred years had no concept of the Trinity--mainly because the word "trinity" is found nowhere in scripture. It is a concept that is an addition to scripture, an adoption of Greek/pagan beliefs.
But give it to those church fathers who decided Christianity would be a "better" religion if they borrowed from pagan culture--kind of like the whole Christmas tree concept.
All the Jews--including Jesus--believed in a monotheistic God.
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The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge plainly documents the historical influence that Greek Philosophy had on the development of the Trinity:
"The doctrine of the Logos and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who. . . were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy . . . That errors and corruptions crept into the Church from this source can not be denied."
The book entitled, The Church of the Fist Three Centuries acknowledges: "The doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation: . . . it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures; . . . it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers."
The Platonizing Fathers were the Greek Philosophers that became Christian but continued to follow the teachings of Plato. These Philosophers mixed Christians Ideas with Pagan Greek Philosophy to formulate the concept of a three person Godhead. The apostle Paul warned the Greek Colossian city, "Beware lest any man cheat you through philosophy and vain deceit. . .(Colossians 2:8)"
What kind of philosophy was Paul warning about? Since Paul was addressing a Greek city, he must have been warning about the entrance of Greek Philosophical Thought. The Platonic Fathers also known as Greek Apologists were the first to introduce Pagan Trinitarian Thought into Christianity.
-------------- Historian Will Durant observed: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity."
Siegfried Morenz, in the book 'Egyptian Religion' notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . These gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."
James Hastings wrote in the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics: "In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahma, Siva, and Visnu; and in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus. . . Nor is it only in historical religions that we find God viewed as a Trinity. One recalls in particular the Neo-Platonic views of the Supreme or Ultimate Reality. which is triadically represented."
The French New Universal Dictionary reveals both Plato's Greek Philosophical Influence upon Christianity and that of ancient pagan religions: "The Platonic Trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian Churches. . . Thus Greek philosophers conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient pagan religions."
L. L. Paine records that the Trinity idea stems from Pagan Roots: ". . . among the more highly civilized Chaldaeans, Babylonians, Assyrians, and Egyptians, triads of gods were a common and notable feature of their theogonies."
H. P. Blavatsky in Isis Unveiled (pages 45,46), reveals that the Trinity Dogma originated from Babylon: "We find it northeast of the Indus; and tracing it to Asia Minor and Europe, recognize it among every people who had anything like an established religion. It was taught in the oldest Chaldaean, Egyptian, and Mithraitic schools. The Chaldaean Sun-god, Mithra, was called 'Triple,' and the trinitarian idea of the Chaldaeans was a doctrine of the Akkadians, who themselves belonged to a race which was the first to conceive a metaphysical trinity. According to Rawlinson, the Chaldaeans are a tribe of the Akkadians, who lived in Babylonia from the earliest of times."
So the origins really go long before the 4th century. Do you think it was simply Greek influence as obviously Paul did, or perhaps Egyptian or Babylonian? It certainly wasn't unique to Christians.
Studying carefully and researching relentlessly can help a person unravel the many concepts grafted into what has become the 'christian" faith of today. But one can't pull it from the bible--its done as a result of interpretative creativity by those 4th century church leaders influenced by Platonic philosophy.
They will, God said "Wide" is the path to destruction.
There's a reason it's so wide.
I agree!! And it's loaded with people thinking they are worshiping God when in fact they have been duped into swallowing a religion in which many pagan beliefs have been grafted.
To understand scripture, one must know the errors and additions (it's very difficult to adjudge subtractions), where concepts arose from and why. Scripture must be held accountable for culture and context in its day and age, not plopped down in the 21st century as if it is equally compatible with our culture.
If that were not so, there would not be 30,000 different denominations all with their own unique interpretations.
A man made concept, the priesthood of the believer, once reigned supreme among conservative christians. That concept states that each of us are able to see a different but not necessarily exclusionary vision of God, and that we could agree to disagree. With the rise of the cult of fundamentalism--in several religions--the idea that someone else could hold a different view of scripture and still be a brother or sister in Christ was lost from the Christian faith.
Barry Goldwater summed it up quite nicely (although he was looking at it from a political view) when he said--
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Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.
.....
The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom.... I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are?... I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."
From a religious point of view, Senator Goldwater is equally correct. Conservative religion became conservative politics and brought the heretofore unheard of concept of "no compromise" to both politics and religion.
Study some more, and find out what YOU really believe, not what some church pundit has told you to believe.
hmm.....then what's your 'belief' in a god based on?
Personal Experience
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Originally Posted by justtitans
I'm a little bit curious about your background. Did you grow up in the church? When did you get to the point where you started questioning the validity of the Bible?
Didnt grow up in a church. Have always had basic Christian beliefs but upon doing some research have found out just how much the bible has been tampered with over the years
How exactly am I supposed to trust a book that has notoriously been tampered with several times throughout history?
That is what theologians do…they try to find ways to resolve apparent inconsistencies and find ethical solutions that validate their belief…this is what is wrong with Christianity. This is the reason that the Bible has been re-written so many times.
The point of science and the reason it works is because you don’t try and prove something that you like to be true…you also try and prove it to be false…and that is what is really important.
You don’t just find a way to say the rainbows are caused by this or that…you actually try and see if your ideas are wrong and ask what is more plausible based on evidence and inquiry.
This is what is problematic with theologians trying to fill in the gaps that science has made…the effort to find a rational excuse for something can work…but this does not make it right or truthful.
To presume that you know divine truth before you have checked out the Universe is simply not sensible.
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