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Originally Posted by ShanaBrown Hi, I believe that there are many scriptures which speak to God's sovereign choice of individuals and nations and I believe that some are elected to salvation in this age, but that all will be reconciled to God eventually. I believe that God gives us self wills to exercise but that He ultimately works all according to His will. I don't understand what you are saying in the second quote. Please clarify.
Ok we are at least on the same page on one thing.
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA With Predestination, in effect, it is "by chance" you are saved as you need to have been one of the elect. This in essence nullifies all choice wrt "getting saved"
OK, initially I thought you were just a plain Calvinist - sorry Rephrase
My POV is somewhere in the middle of Calvinism and Arminianism. Yes there are those ordained to be certain special folk - set apart - called - etc.
[/quote]So, I think that we basically agree here, Seeker. :, that there are those ordained to be special folk.
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Your predestination extends beyond this age we are in and in that I can agree. However in this age, some get a John 6:44 experience and others not irrespective of their doctrines. As simple as it stands, when the hand is offered out to us aka we see salvation, we still need to accept it even though that part is infinitely less significant than the drawing process.
Not sure what you mean irrespective of their doctrines but I believe that some do get the drawing in this age.
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I believe that the passage in Romans 9 is speaking of predestination but I do believe that all is out of God including illness, misfortune, and good fortune I believe that prayer brings our wills into line with God's will and that although God sees beginning to end, we don't. God exercises our wills to teach us to depend on Him and I believe that prayer is part of our development in learning to trust in God in all things.
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Well I do not see misfortune or illness coming from God. Maybe because I am healthy or more likely I refuse to accept illness and rebuke it when it tries to come upon me. I have had my misfortunes too, but I do not blame God for them, all of them have traceable cause.
I get over it and move on. Too many folk give up or refuse to take responsibility for their actions. The extreme POV of predetermination infers all sin we commit is of God or alternatively God wields satan in His left hand to do evil and His right hand Jesus to do good. Well then we may as well go through life with a little devil on our left shoulder and an angel on the right, amazing how cartoons affect the way some folk think, not implying you of course.
Well, I get my belief that all is out of God by scriptures like Romans 11:32 and 1 Corinthians 8:6, and personally I don't see how they don't reveal this. All is out of God or is from God but this doesn't mean that man is not to be judged by his actions. I think it has to do with God teaching us what is is all about apart from Him. He has put us into a situation where we can choose (although I don't believe that it is absolutely free choice because something always causes something else, I believe) I believe that He has cast us into the role of sinner as part of our development of being made into His image, and I believe that misfortune, illness, evil is all a part of that development. For example, how can we learn to forgive unless we have been offended? How can we develop persistence and total dependency on God without adversity? How can we understand and fully appreciate the nature of the agape love of God without being placed into a position which calls for its display? How can we really understand and appreciate the holiness of God without seeing the contrast of evil? How can we know and appreciate God as healer without needing to be healed. Just how I see it.
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I believe that it may or may not be God's will to heal a person. We pray, if it is your will, Father
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Well, you are not extreme. I find it ironic the extreme folk are the ones that post the most prayer requests. Faith of
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the recipient is important for healing as much as the prayer of a righteous man that avails much. The source of healing IMO is often misplaced. The Father is the Great Physician, no one else. Everything Jesus did in healing, He acknowledged the Father doing the work though Him.
Yes, I agree that the Father is the Great Physician.
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA Then we can look at another extreme. You are a faithful Christian and do all the best you can, meet all said requirements of church laws, IOW a squeaky clean and righteous Christian. One day your 5 year old daughter is kidnapped, raped and her murdered mutilated corpse found a few days later.
If that is willed of God, what message is He trying to convey to you? Predetermination says all comes from God.
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Quote: Originally Posted by ShanaBrown If God sees beginning to end, then I believe that He knows all that will happen and if he knows this, He brought it into existence when He created us. God may be teaching us many things through the experience of evil, including the need to trust Him in all circumstances, for example, I believe.
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Well would you using that example accept it was God that did it? (This question is usually avoided btw)
I believe that God knew what would happen and in this knowledge brought it into existence, but ultimately for a higher purpose. Where did it come from if not from the One from whom all things come? This does not mean that God is the murderer. I often look at like someone writing a script or a play and elements of murder are in the play. This does not mean that the person who wrote the script or play is a murderer. God gives man the capacity or ability to commit murder. God has life and death in His hands anyway, so what is death to Him? Nothing in reality. Does it really exist in the presence of God who is life? A baby is killed but God, the author of life has the power of life and destroys death in the end. I wonder what God will bring out of the whole experience in the end for both the one who was offended and the one who did the offending.
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See when we say all is of God then the most horrendous crimes against humanity by other humans was ordained by God. The problem is further complicated when folk try and merge the God of the Jews to the God of Jesus. It is the same God but I say the Jews misrepresented Him with their laws. Briefly:
Exo 20:19 And they said to Moses, You speak with us, and we will hear. But let not God speak with us, lest we die.
That is where it all went pear shaped. Moses had the stage set for God to talk direct to the folk, they refused and chose and intermediary. See that and you will clearly see throughout the OT where the Jews inferred God told them mostly via Moses was not of God. The genocides commanded broke God's Law of "Thou Shalt not kill." The Jews wanted an earthly king, God was their King. Some folk say the OT is man trying to get to God and the NT God trying to get to man. God has always been trying to get to man, it is man that invents religion and laws and doctrines and......
Let me think about what you have shared here.
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I believe that all is out of God (Romans 11) and that He is the giver of life and that He also takes life away. He gives us the ability to make choices, to disobey but I believe that it is all a part of our development of being made into His image. We experience the horrible results of sin to teach us about the destructiveness of sin and to contrast that with the holiness and righteousness of God, I believe.
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Well He gives life. Want death? Dwell in the shadows and confusion of the OT. Want Life? Follow the teachings of Jesus. He came to give us abundant, easy yoke, burden light life. Have not got that yet? Look inside. Introspection reveals much.
Not quite sure what you are sharing here, Seeker.
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When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change
I can see that for some things.
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I believe that God works all things according to the counsel of His will, although I do believe that God gives us choices, I don't believe that we have absolute free will.
Neither do I. This is the problem when folk cannot see that our wills work in unison with God's will. The extreme of predetermination is like a VCR tape (us) put in the VCR machine (world) and God hits the play button and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Kinda weird and that again puts God-in-a-box, we reduce His Sovereignty to fit our paradigms of thinking. Yet whatever we do to upset the cosmic apple cart, I am sure He has the ability to correct the upset. He is not a micromanager, yes I know the sparrow falling and the hairs on the head verses. He gave us dominion and never once retracted that. Even Adam named the animals. (And I do not believe Genesis literally either)
I don't believe that we are robots programmed to act a certain way. I believe that God gives us choices and the ability to fail, to disobey, ect, but I don't believe that it stems from something that is entirely free. Something is influencing how we behave but even this is worked according to the counsel of God's will, I believe. I am still studying on the sovereignty of God and the scriptures which speak of God seeing the beginning to the end. Thanks for sharing.
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See on another thread discussing homosexuality, the predestined folk will temporarily drop it and condemn the gay. They will drop it when you look at the Spanish Inquisition. "Godly" men killing godly men.
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I agree that all are ultimately reconciled to God also, and I believe in the unconditional love. The belief that God predestines individual for example for certain roles, does not mean that His love is conditional. I believe that some are elected to salvation in this age to be a blessing to others, according to what God has purposed.
No problems here. The key is Love. In Unconditional Love, even blood atonement/sacrifice is not necessary.
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA Many will say yes He is Unconditional but.... No buts. Unconditional means just that, Unconditional. As soon as we make His Love conditional, then His love is no more significant than ours is. He loved us first. He chose us, we did not choose Him.
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Quote: Originally Posted by ShanaBrown I agree that God's love is unconditional and that He chose us. We did not choose Him. This is one reason that I do not believe in absolute free will.
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Again neither do I.
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I also believe that Jesus will draw all men to Himself, but I don't believe that He draws all at the same time. God's choice and predetermined plan is to draw all to Himself and reconcile all to Himself. No one will be able to resist His unconditional love and power.
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Amen
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Thanks for sharing your perspective. I hope that you realize that we may not agree on certain things, meaning that as I respect your right to believe and express your perspective on this subject, I hope that you will respect my right to believe and express my perspective on this subject Although we agree on some things, we have a different perspective on others. I also hope that you can see where I am coming from. God bless and thanks for sharing.
Nope, I am not offended if you believe different, likewise I hope the same applies to me.
Yes it does. Thanks again for sharing and God bless
I do think that Gal. 4 reveals the spiritual interpretation of God using two sons throughout scripture as an allegory and Romans 9 stating that the "elder must serve the younger" ties this portion to this allegory. In each case, there are two sons (Cain and Abel, Ishmael and Isaac, Esau and Jacob) and the elder always was a type of the flesh born and the second born was a type of the spirit born. But let me show the "vessels of dishonor" from another place.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
I have heard some use this scripture like Romans 9 is used to say that in every church there are vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. But, what is the house or dwelling place of the Lord really? Aren’t we all the church and the house of God? The point of this portion of scripture is that every one of us depart from iniquity.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
In every one of us as a house of God, there are things that are of gold and silver and precious stones. There are also vessels of dishonor in every one of us that are wood and hay and stubble. The Word says that if we purge ourselves of these, we will be vessels of honor and not dishonor.
Our God is a consuming fire and He does come to all of us to purge us of those things that are of the flesh or the first born so that that which is of God or the second born will remain. We will suffer loss by this process, but we shall be saved so as by fire.
I agree with much of what you share here .
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It is good that you can see this interpretation, also, but if this internal view is only one way of seeing it, we still have a problem with God being a respecter of persons which the scriptures explicitly state that He is not. For God to have created people as vessels of dishonor that He knew He would hate and cause to suffer eternally as Calvinists teach makes Him out to be anything but a loving Father to His creation,
John, I don't believe that the vessels of dishonor are to be eternally condemned but I do believe that some have been called or elected for a higher purpose, just like the apostle Paul was called or the disciples were called, or Abraham was called. The higher purpose in this age does not mean that they are better than anyone else but that they have a different purpose in helping to bring about the reconciliation of the world, I believe. Firstfruits of the harvest and then there is the remaining fruit. Again, I don't believe that God hates any human being because Jesus died for all and God is described as agape love and it is His good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself. Thanks again for sharing and God bless.
It sounds like we believe exactly the same. Maybe the only difference where I see free will coming in is whether we fulfill God's predestinated purpose in our lives or not.
If a person is called to be an apostle, they may or may not ever walk in this calling depending upon what they do with their free will.
At the same time, regardless of free will, a man cannot choose to be an apostle if they are not called by God to be one.
I believe that God sets the boundaries of our full calling and within those bounds, free will effects what we do. Our free will cannot go beyond those boundaries, but we can fall short of them by this same free will.
Just wondering if you think computers have free will?
No, I do not believe that computers have free will. They can only do what they are programed to do. They were not created in the image and the likeness of God as was mankind. You do believe that God has free will, do you not? So what do we have in His image and likeness?
We have freedom of will, but we do not have freedom of choice. God sets the boundaries of our choices and within these boundaries we are expected to exercise our free will.
No, I do not believe that computers have free will. They can only do what they are programed to do.
Some computers are not programmed to make a certain choice. They are fed data or information and they make a choice. They act on the data or info they are given,just like you.
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They were not created in the image and the likeness of God as was mankind. You do believe that God has free will, do you not? So what do we have in His image and likeness?
No they were not created in his image. Man has the knowledge of good and evil and that is what makes us in the image of God.
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We have freedom of will, but we do not have freedom of choice. God sets the boundaries of our choices and within these boundaries we are expected to exercise our free will.
What? so you believe man doesn`t have freedom of choice? In what way does God set boundaries for our choices? give me an example.
What? so you believe man doesn`t have freedom of choice? In what way does God set boundaries for our choices? give me an example.
God says that He has set before us life and death, blessing and cursing. He then encourages us to choose life so we and our seed may live.
The boundaries are the choices given. I cannot choose immortality right now. I cannot choose to be a fish or fly through the air. God has not given me those choices. He has only given me life or death here so He has set the boundaries of my choice. Then, He expects me to choose among the given choices by my free will.
Simiarly, we are told that there is only One name under Heaven by which we must be saved. I cannot choose to be saved in the name of Bhudda or Allah or Krishna. These choices are not available to me. God has only set the boundary that I can choose Christ or neglect Him. Now, among these two choices given, I must choose by my free will.
God, on the other hand, is omnipotent so He can choose anything. No one else sets the boundaries for God because for God nothing is impossible. Man is not like God in this way because we can only choose from the choices that God has given us.
Then we can look at another extreme. You are a faithful Christian and do all the best you can, meet all said requirements of church laws, IOW a squeaky clean and righteous Christian. One day your 5 year old daughter is kidnapped, raped and her murdered mutilated corpse found a few days later.
If that is willed of God, what message is He trying to convey to you? Predetermination says all comes from God.
I believe that God knew what would happen and in this knowledge brought it into existence, but ultimately for a higher purpose. Where did it come from if not from the One from whom all things come? This does not mean that God is the murderer.
Hi Shana
This is the usual answer, God is all knowing and no God cannot be the murderer.
I know this is an extreme example but theology should measure up to the extremes too. It is easy to take the analogy of the Potter and Clay, link it to Job and accept your lot in life. Then this happens.
Your moral fibre in you cries out NO! when confronted by these things. Then if God is all knowing, the question we ask why did He allow it to happen or why did He not intervene. There is no logical answer.
That is when one starts looking for traceable cause. In whatever scenario you paint his example, the girl was left unattended in the car or garden, the murderer, is a psychopath or deeper still he too may have had deep scars in his life that made him turn out that way. The victim is the innocent girl.
The reality is no one really may get down to the root cause. Deferring to God is the easy not the logical way out. In a justice system where a death penalty exists, the man may pay with his life or end up imprisoned for life, the consequences of his actions in this life.
There is no doubt the girl is loved by the Father but then so too does the murderer have His Love, that becomes gut wrenching for folk to swallow. A Calvinist like Johnathan Edwards will suggest the girl goes to hell including the man. The innocent survivors then may harbor unforgiveness in their hearts, a sin, thus they too are destined to hell. (I know you do not believe it as such) However, this is the paradigm of Calvinism at its worst. Why? It is all reduced to the vessel of honor and dishonor nonsense w/o looking at reality.
God sets things in motion. Our choices (free-will) affect those we interact with, those effects, govern their choices too.
Trying to decipher this will always lead one to a conundrum and in the end it drives you nuts with space-time-continuum's etc. Most of what we choose we do exercising our will, free in its nature, governed by circumstances outside our control, that is what I mean free-will, maybe responsibility and/or sensibility would be better words.
Illness is easier. A plague was determined to come from the fleas of rats, London burned and the plague left. Many thought it was a curse from God. In today's world, most disease is traceable to germs and how they get into you has a traceable avoidable cause. We may even genetically inherit a disease, I have. For me there is a cure. Cancer has traceable cause and healthy diets can prevent it or there are treatments available. All species survive by natural laws of survival of the fittest/strongest. These are the laws set in motion. Modern medicine has caused folk to survive longer than they should have, propagate that a few generations, the result is we living in a society where medication is readily available, the defective genes are allowed to permeate through the generations. The further back you trace, the more likely you may come up with a root cause. There are few disease today that have no known cause.
Now with that mindset, God is still able to undo, whatever went wrong originally. The church has propagated generational curses and we believe it - crap. This was the Jew's perception of the Father that He would visit the 3rd and 4th generation for the iniquities of the father, yet we ignore the scrips that oppose that statement. How can we in the traditional sense have Christ in us and still have the alleged curse? He is supposed to break the bonds. God no longer remembers our sins.
So by assuming the stuff we suffer is sent of God for whatever reason, we in effect tie His hands to heal us. How can one say God made me sick and then ask Him to heal you? Why would He deliberately make you ill? That is the same as a doctor wilfully injuring you so that he can prescribe medication to heal you. You also need to understand, our bodies are self repairing. Sometimes that mechanism is affected by external influences, poisons, chemicals we ingest whatever. It is those external influence effects that God can fix. He steps in and repairs, but we need to believe he can do it, one ounce of doubt cancels out an ounce of faith. How many times did Jesus say, "Your faith has made you whole.." Yes there were times He just did it.
Eventually I will die and it may be from a disease, who knows? It is appointed once for us to die. Our survival instinct dictates we should live as long as possible, that is natural.
I believe that medicines we have today are both a blessing and a curse. Do we prolong life unnaturally? We are here temporarily. God does not micromanage our lives, He will upon request intervene if we believe He can and will heal us. There comes a time when it is time to go home. Up till then, live life to its fullest. The Father only wants the best for all His children, the evil that exists feeds off us humans, we give evil life.
We should all walk away from eating of the ToKoG&E and rather eat of the ToL.
God says that He has set before us life and death, blessing and cursing. He then encourages us to choose life so we and our seed may live.
The boundaries are the choices given. I cannot choose immortality right now. I cannot choose to be a fish or fly through the air. God has not given me those choices. He has only given me life or death here so He has set the boundaries of my choice. Then, He expects me to choose among the given choices by my free will.
Simiarly, we are told that there is only One name under Heaven by which we must be saved. I cannot choose to be saved in the name of Bhudda or Allah or Krishna. These choices are not available to me. God has only set the boundary that I can choose Christ or neglect Him. Now, among these two choices given, I must choose by my free will.
God, on the other hand, is omnipotent so He can choose anything. No one else sets the boundaries for God because for God nothing is impossible. Man is not like God in this way because we can only choose from the choices that God has given us.
This is the usual answer, God is all knowing and no God cannot be the murderer.
I know this is an extreme example but theology should measure up to the extremes too. It is easy to take the analogy of the Potter and Clay, link it to Job and accept your lot in life. Then this happens.
Your moral fibre in you cries out NO! when confronted by these things. Then if God is all knowing, the question we ask why did He allow it to happen or why did He not intervene. There is no logical answer.
That is when one starts looking for traceable cause. In whatever scenario you paint his example, the girl was left unattended in the car or garden, the murderer, is a psychopath or deeper still he too may have had deep scars in his life that made him turn out that way. The victim is the innocent girl.
The reality is no one really may get down to the root cause. Deferring to God is the easy not the logical way out. In a justice system where a death penalty exists, the man may pay with his life or end up imprisoned for life, the consequences of his actions in this life.
There is no doubt the girl is loved by the Father but then so too does the murderer have His Love, that becomes gut wrenching for folk to swallow. A Calvinist like Johnathan Edwards will suggest the girl goes to hell including the man. The innocent survivors then may harbor unforgiveness in their hearts, a sin, thus they too are destined to hell. (I know you do not believe it as such) However, this is the paradigm of Calvinism at its worst. Why? It is all reduced to the vessel of honor and dishonor nonsense w/o looking at reality.
God sets things in motion. Our choices (free-will) affect those we interact with, those effects, govern their choices too.
Trying to decipher this will always lead one to a conundrum and in the end it drives you nuts with space-time-continuum's etc. Most of what we choose we do exercising our will, free in its nature, governed by circumstances outside our control, that is what I mean free-will, maybe responsibility and/or sensibility would be better words.
Illness is easier. A plague was determined to come from the fleas of rats, London burned and the plague left. Many thought it was a curse from God. In today's world, most disease is traceable to germs and how they get into you has a traceable avoidable cause. We may even genetically inherit a disease, I have. For me there is a cure. Cancer has traceable cause and healthy diets can prevent it or there are treatments available. All species survive by natural laws of survival of the fittest/strongest. These are the laws set in motion. Modern medicine has caused folk to survive longer than they should have, propagate that a few generations, the result is we living in a society where medication is readily available, the defective genes are allowed to permeate through the generations. The further back you trace, the more likely you may come up with a root cause. There are few disease today that have no known cause.
Now with that mindset, God is still able to undo, whatever went wrong originally. The church has propagated generational curses and we believe it - crap. This was the Jew's perception of the Father that He would visit the 3rd and 4th generation for the iniquities of the father, yet we ignore the scrips that oppose that statement. How can we in the traditional sense have Christ in us and still have the alleged curse? He is supposed to break the bonds. God no longer remembers our sins.
So by assuming the stuff we suffer is sent of God for whatever reason, we in effect tie His hands to heal us. How can one say God made me sick and then ask Him to heal you? Why would He deliberately make you ill? That is the same as a doctor wilfully injuring you so that he can prescribe medication to heal you. You also need to understand, our bodies are self repairing. Sometimes that mechanism is affected by external influences, poisons, chemicals we ingest whatever. It is those external influence effects that God can fix. He steps in and repairs, but we need to believe he can do it, one ounce of doubt cancels out an ounce of faith. How many times did Jesus say, "Your faith has made you whole.." Yes there were times He just did it.
Eventually I will die and it may be from a disease, who knows? It is appointed once for us to die. Our survival instinct dictates we should live as long as possible, that is natural.
I believe that medicines we have today are both a blessing and a curse. Do we prolong life unnaturally? We are here temporarily. God does not micromanage our lives, He will upon request intervene if we believe He can and will heal us. There comes a time when it is time to go home. Up till then, live life to its fullest. The Father only wants the best for all His children, the evil that exists feeds off us humans, we give evil life.
We should all walk away from eating of the ToKoG&E and rather eat of the ToL.
Blessings
Very well spoken!!! Reality is not a easy thing to acknowledge and the reality of truth does not want to set logically in our hearts and minds. We always rationalize the things we can not understand. I believe this is why God says, His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways, are not our ways!
It is difficult for us to really understand the love of God and yet He is a God of justices and mercy.
I really don't believe people understand the seriousness of sin.
Deut.32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; righteous and upright is He.
His work is perfect and all truth begins with an appropiate understanding of God. It is sinful to presume on the faithfulness of God, but it is our confidence in a God who forgives and loves that makes our salvation possible.
God Bless!
So, I think that we basically agree here, Seeker. :, that there are those ordained to be special folk.
So how do I know if I am special or not?
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Rephrase
