Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Knock it off with the your Bible passage nonsense.
My use of "your" in regard the bible is simply because I'm not a Christian and not someone who accepts the bible as the word of God, and I know you do. In my experience, people who believe as you do can be rather possessive of the bible and so I've gotten into the habit of proactively ascribing ownership to you guys to circumvent the accusations that tend to get thrown at me for quoting the bible "when you don't even believe it".
Quote:
It's the same Bible you are quoting. If you're going to use it, allow me the same courtesy.
I'm not stopping you from quoting anything Jimmie. I'm just pointing out that if you think the Revelation passage means that God is keeping a record of wrongs, it contradicts the biblical concepts that God is love, and that love keeps no record of wrongs. That's not a problem for me, but it should be for someone who says the bible doesn't contradict itself.
Quote:
Now, does it really say "God is not holding the sins of the world against them"?
Sure. In part of the same passage that you quoted from 2 Cor 5
As Jerwade said: In other words, God was reconciling the world (humanity) to himself through Christ.
By not counting people's sins against them. It's the message of reconciliation.
Quote:
I already answered that. Post #59, last sentence and 2 Cor. 5:21.
Quote:
When we repent of our sin, Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, making us free from the penalty of sin (eternal death).
2 Corinthians 5:21
"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
You're talking about a supposed penalty that needed to be paid, but I'm asking you about actual CHANGE. HOW does Jesus being a human sacrifice to appease God's wrath change people? It doesn't. You're saying it just changes how God sees you (which doesn't make sense), not that it actually changes you.
Sure. In part of the same passage that you quoted from 2 Cor 5
As Jerwade said: In other words, God was reconciling the world (humanity) to himself through Christ. By not counting people's sins against them. It's the message of reconciliation.
You're talking about a supposed penalty that needed to be paid, but I'm asking you about actual CHANGE. HOW does Jesus being a human sacrifice to appease God's wrath change people? It doesn't. You're saying it just changes how God sees you (which doesn't make sense), not that it actually changes you.
Let's examine that entire passage (I thought you were quoting from 1 Cor. 13).
2 Cor. 5
16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
Here Paul is speaking to believers (the church in Corinth). They know Christ differently now that they're believers.
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
This is the CHANGE that happens when a person believes in and commits their life to Christ. This is a result of the Spirit's indwelling.
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Who is Paul talking to and about here? All mankind? Did he switch the narrative from the just the church to everyone or is he still talking to the church, the redeemed?
The letter is addressed to:
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:
If he's referring to Christians only, the passage from Revelation would make sense. God views those in Christ differently, not counting their trespasses against them, since their sins were put on Jesus, at the cross.
2 Cor. 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Isaiah 53:5
But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
Let's examine that entire passage (I thought you were quoting from 1 Cor. 13).
Yes, I quoted from there, too ... love keeps no record of wrongs.
Quote:
2 Cor. 5
16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
Here Paul is speaking to believers (the church in Corinth). They know Christ differently now that they're believers.
...
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Who is Paul talking to and about here? All mankind? Did he switch the narrative from the just the church to everyone or is he still talking to the church, the redeemed?
Yes, Jimmie, all mankind. The passage is about Christians being ambassadors TO THE WORLD with the message of reconciliation: that God is not holding people's sins against them.
Quote:
The letter is addressed to:
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:
Right, the "church of God", according to Paul, is supposed to be telling people that God is not holding their sins against them.
Quote:
If he's referring to Christians only, the passage from Revelation would make sense. God views those in Christ differently, not counting their trespasses against them, since their sins were put on Jesus, at the cross.
Quote:
2 Cor. 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Isaiah 53:5
But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
As you see, he's not only referring to Christians in regard to God not holding their sins against them.
Quote:
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
This is the CHANGE that happens when a person believes in and commits their life to Christ. This is a result of the Spirit's indwelling.
Jimmie, I asked you how Jesus being a blood sacrifice to appease God's wrath changes people. How?
Yes, I quoted from there, too ... love keeps no record of wrongs.
Yes, Jimmie, all mankind. The passage is about Christians being ambassadors TO THE WORLD with the message of reconciliation: that God is not holding people's sins against them.
Right, the "church of God", according to Paul, is supposed to be telling people that God is not holding their sins against them.
As you see, he's not only referring to Christians in regard to God not holding their sins against them.
Jimmie, I asked you how Jesus being a blood sacrifice to appease God's wrath changes people. How?
Sure, we are to evangelize, but Paul specifically refers to those in Christ being made new. Not all mankind falls under that heading. Otherwise, there would be no need for v. 20.
I've already answered your last question in post #59 and 72 (Spirit indwelling).
Sure, we are to evangelize, but Paul specifically refers to those in Christ being made new. Not all mankind falls under that heading. Otherwise, there would be no need for v. 20.
Jimmie, the passage says to tell the world that God is not holding their sins against them. Not sure how you can exclude people from a passage that speaks of the whole world.
And you haven't addressed the biblical concept that love does not keep a record of wrongs, either.
Quote:
I've already answered your last question in post #59 and 72 (Spirit indwelling).
No, you haven't. Saying the "spirit indwelling" changes people does not explain how Jesus dying as a human sacrifice to appease God's wrath changes anyone. It just says the spirit indwelling people changes them. Jesus dying as a human sacrifice to appease God's wrath does not equal the "spirit indwelling".
Jimmie, the passage says to tell the world that God is not holding their sins against them. Not sure how you can exclude people from a passage that speaks of the whole world.
And you haven't addressed the biblical concept that love does not keep a record of wrongs, either.
Who are those "in Christ"? And why must they persuade people?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
No, you haven't. Saying the "spirit indwelling" changes people does not explain how Jesus dying as a human sacrifice to appease God's wrath changes anyone. It just says the spirit indwelling people changes them. Jesus dying as a human sacrifice to appease God's wrath does not equal the "spirit indwelling".
Yes, I did. Post #59. Here it is again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
The blood represents life. Sin, from the perspective of a holy God, requires payment. Jesus, being the only perfect life, free from sin, was able to pay the penalty in our place. If we try to pay our sin debt (being sinful), the payment is eternal death (John 3).
When we repent of our sin, Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, making us free from the penalty of sin (eternal death).
2 Corinthians 5:21
"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
Once we have Christ's righteousness, we are redeemed (justification). The Holy Spirit endwells us and the process of sanctification begins (new creature).
Who are those "in Christ"? And why must they persuade people?
People who've heard all their lives that God is angry with them need a message of reconciliation. They need the misinformation they've been fed to be corrected.
Quote:
Yes, I did. Post #59. Here it is again.
Once we have Christ's righteousness, we are redeemed (justification). The Holy Spirit endwells us and the process of sanctification begins (new creature).
Which has nothing to do with Jesus dying on a cross to appease God's wrath.
People who've heard all their lives that God is angry with them need a message of reconciliation. They need the misinformation they've been fed to be corrected.
Which has nothing to do with Jesus dying on a cross to appease God's wrath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
All people, but only those who are raised in consciousness know it and understand it.
Thanks pcamps. I agree that the bible says ALL are in Christ.
The way I worded my post in response to Jimmie's post was confusing, I realize now. I was talking about why people need to be "persuaded".
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
