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Yes, well He certainly used them to reveal spiritual truths when He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, didn't He? Peace
Sodom and Gommorah had nothing to do with any kind of same sex love and everything to do with disobeying God's commands for hospitality toward strangers. They also wanted to rape a couple of angels. Males raping males had everything to do with domination and nothing to do with love. Prisons are full of men who aren't homosexual but who rape one another in the same sense the male inhabitants (ALL of the male inhabitants which means heterosexual males were those in the greatest number) of Sodom wanted the two angels and not Lot's daughters whom he was willing to turn over to them.
There are a couple of verses outside of Genesis which speak to the sin of I hospitality. Jesus, Himself gave reference to it in His telling His disciples that if any town turned them away it would be better for sodom and Gommorah than for that city:
"Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." (Matt. 10:14-15).
You do your own work in finding which prophets spoke of the sins of Sodom and Gommorah. One of them was in Ezekiel as I recall. According to the "big picture," as explained by the prophets, both cities had a boatload of sins--but the PRIMARY sin was inhospitalty. That's why Jesus made His comment about His disciples being turned away. He knew what the prophets were emphasizing even if you do not.
I could appreciate you voicing an opinion if you did some study of the subject and learned differing interpretations and scriptural understanding. I would then ask you to explain why you hold a negative view of homosexual people when there are other opinions. What is it about fundamentalism that its adherents always choose the least favorable view of people, homosexual or otherwise, when Jesus took a positive view of everyone except the existing "bible-believers" who killed Him for not taking Scripture "literally,"as they did?
Sodom and Gommorah had nothing to do with any kind of same sex love and everything to do with disobeying God's commands for hospitality toward strangers. They also wanted to rape a couple of angels. Males raping males had everything to do with domination and nothing to do with love. Prisons are full of men who aren't homosexual but who rape one another in the same sense the male inhabitants (ALL of the male inhabitants which means heterosexual males were those in the greatest number) of Sodom wanted the two angels and not Lot's daughters whom he was willing to turn over to them.
There are a couple of verses outside of Genesis which speak to the sin of I hospitality. Jesus, Himself gave reference to it in His telling His disciples that if any town turned them away it would be better for sodom and Gommorah than for that city:
"Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." (Matt. 10:14-15).
You do your own work in finding which prophets spoke of the sins of Sodom and Gommorah. One of them was in Ezekiel as I recall. According to the "big picture," as explained by the prophets, both cities had a boatload of sins--but the PRIMARY sin was inhospitalty. That's why Jesus made His comment about His disciples being turned away. He knew what the prophets were emphasizing even if you do not.
I could appreciate you voicing an opinion if you did some study of the subject and learned differing interpretations and scriptural understanding. I would then ask you to explain why you hold a negative view of homosexual people when there are other opinions. What is it about fundamentalism that its adherents always choose the least favorable view of people, homosexual or otherwise, when Jesus took a positive view of everyone except the existing "bible-believers" who killed Him for not taking Scripture "literally,"as they did?
I am just nearly speechless, that you think that hospitality was the issue in the text in Matt. you quoted, and that is what you are using to determine why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Just when you think you've heard every loophole seeking to get out of the righteousness of G-d and HIS ways....
The reason, it would be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for any city that did not receive the disciples, was because of the principle of them going in a greater One's stead, just like Yeshua came in a greater One's stead.
See, when they went IN HIS NAME, it was equivocal to Him going there Himself and being rejected of them. What is the penalty for rejecting Him, compared to the lapse of manners in not showing hospitality on a scale of 1 to 10, do you think?
Remember, Sodom and Gomorrah were not so favored as to have a visit from Him, and the angels went to LOT, not them. So because they not did have the advantage of a personal visit, they would obviously have it much better than a city that witnessed miracles done in His name, in His stead, which counts as a personal visit. Which, if you consider the destruction brought to Sodom and Gomorrah, would be not be good for the city that rejected Him. Ask Jerusalem 70 AD how that worked out for them.
And since the literal offends you so much, here is some spiritual for you. Sodom = flesh, Gommorah = carnal mind. The boat the disciples were in when Yeshua when He walked to them on the water, represented the same thing, as wood represents our carnal nature.
This is why the ark of the covenant was made with wood, covered over within and without with gold, representative of the higher nature of G-d, BOTH of which are attainable via the inward anointing of the Spirit of G-d we receive with initial salvation experience AND via the outward anointing of the Spirit of G-d we receive by being baptized into His Spirit. Both of these experiences with His Spirit are part of what we are SUPPOSED to receive as believers in Him. And not only are we to attain them, but keep on pressing in to receive more of Him. As we decrease, He increases. No decrease of flesh, no increase of Spirit.
He said, if they had not seen Him (perceived Him as He is now = Spirit), He would have passed them by. THAT, is a far worse punishment than fire and brimstone which only lasts so long as the flesh does. Because, we can only be conformed into His image, IF WE CAN SEE HIM, and that by the Spirit, NOT by the reasoning of our carnal minds. Peace
I am just nearly speechless, that you think that hospitality was the issue in the text in Matt. you quoted, and that is what you are using to determine why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Just when you think you've heard every loophole seeking to get out of the righteousness of G-d and HIS ways....
Why on earth would you be speechless? What Warden said in his post was accurate. According to Mark 6:8-11 (KJV), this is what Jesus said to His disciples before sending them out to witness to the people in the various towns:
8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.
10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
One need not be a formally trained theologian to determine from the above scripture that it would be expected that the disciples would be received and accommodated ...a customarily accepted act of hospitality for visitors or strangers in those days. However, there were always exceptions to the rule and Jesus instructs the disciples to depart from a city when met with an unwelcoming, unfriendly attitude and, perhaps, hostility. It stands to reason that the disciples should not hang around in such cases. Jesus equates those inhospitable cities with Sodom and Gomorrah. So, CLEARLY, the act of being inhospitable is looked upon as being an 'intolerable' act. We can therefore conclude that S&G displayed the very same inhospitable behavior as did those towns that Jesus told His disciples to leave and bear testimony against.
How many of you find this explanation fairly easy to understand? Evidently, some don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
The reason, it would be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for any city that did not receive the disciples, was because of the principle of them going in a greater One's stead, just like Yeshua came in a greater One's stead.
See, when they went IN HIS NAME, it was equivocal to Him going there Himself and being rejected of them. What is the penalty for rejecting Him, compared to the lapse of manners in not showing hospitality on a scale of 1 to 10, do you think?
Actually, your using the 'smack' smiley is probably a good idea. I would suggest that you add a few more and really smack yourself good. What you say above is gobble-de-**** ...unnecessarily confusing diatribe when the scripture already speaks for itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
Remember, Sodom and Gomorrah were not so favored as to have a visit from Him, and the angels went to LOT, not them. So because they not did have the advantage of a personal visit, they would obviously have it much better than a city that witnessed miracles done in His name, in His stead, which counts as a personal visit. Which, if you consider the destruction brought to Sodom and Gomorrah, would be not be good for the city that rejected Him. Ask Jerusalem 70 AD how that worked out for them.
What does all of that MEAN? Can you simply change a light bulb or do you have to preface the act with an account of Edison, the light bulb's inventor?
*Yeah, I know, others are also perhaps credited with the light bulb's invention before Edison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1
And since the literal offends you so much, here is some spiritual for you. Sodom = flesh, Gommorah = carnal mind. The boat the disciples were in when Yeshua when He walked to them on the water, represented the same thing, as wood represents our carnal nature.
This is why the ark of the covenant was made with wood, covered over within and without with gold, representative of the higher nature of G-d, BOTH of which are attainable via the inward anointing of the Spirit of G-d we receive with initial salvation experience AND via the outward anointing of the Spirit of G-d we receive by being baptized into His Spirit. Both of these experiences with His Spirit are part of what we are SUPPOSED to receive as believers in Him. And not only are we to attain them, but keep on pressing in to receive more of Him. As we decrease, He increases. No decrease of flesh, no increase of Spirit.
He said, if they had not seen Him (perceived Him as He is now = Spirit), He would have passed them by. THAT, is a far worse punishment than fire and brimstone which only lasts so long as the flesh does. Because, we can only be conformed into His image, IF WE CAN SEE HIM, and that by the Spirit, NOT by the reasoning of our carnal minds. Peace
Well, I had to go prepare some popcorn and a beverage before I could sit through all of that. And, I still don't get it. As before I have to ask ...what does all of that MEAN?
Well, I had to go prepare some popcorn and a beverage before I could sit through all of that. And, I still don't get it. As before I have to ask ...what does all of that MEAN?
If you have no rational argument, "baffle them with bullwhoop."
I am just nearly speechless, that you think that hospitality was the issue in the text in Matt. you quoted, and that is what you are using to determine why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Just when you think you've heard every loophole seeking to get out of the righteousness of G-d and HIS ways....
The reason, it would be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for any city that did not receive the disciples, was because of the principle of them going in a greater One's stead, just like Yeshua came in a greater One's stead.
See, when they went IN HIS NAME, it was equivocal to Him going there Himself and being rejected of them. What is the penalty for rejecting Him, compared to the lapse of manners in not showing hospitality on a scale of 1 to 10, do you think?
Remember, Sodom and Gomorrah were not so favored as to have a visit from Him, and the angels went to LOT, not them. So because they not did have the advantage of a personal visit, they would obviously have it much better than a city that witnessed miracles done in His name, in His stead, which counts as a personal visit. Which, if you consider the destruction brought to Sodom and Gomorrah, would be not be good for the city that rejected Him. Ask Jerusalem 70 AD how that worked out for them.
And since the literal offends you so much, here is some spiritual for you. Sodom = flesh, Gommorah = carnal mind. The boat the disciples were in when Yeshua when He walked to them on the water, represented the same thing, as wood represents our carnal nature.
This is why the ark of the covenant was made with wood, covered over within and without with gold, representative of the higher nature of G-d, BOTH of which are attainable via the inward anointing of the Spirit of G-d we receive with initial salvation experience AND via the outward anointing of the Spirit of G-d we receive by being baptized into His Spirit. Both of these experiences with His Spirit are part of what we are SUPPOSED to receive as believers in Him. And not only are we to attain them, but keep on pressing in to receive more of Him. As we decrease, He increases. No decrease of flesh, no increase of Spirit.
He said, if they had not seen Him (perceived Him as He is now = Spirit), He would have passed them by. THAT, is a far worse punishment than fire and brimstone which only lasts so long as the flesh does. Because, we can only be conformed into His image, IF WE CAN SEE HIM, and that by the Spirit, NOT by the reasoning of our carnal minds. Peace
I am nearly speechless that you have such a poor understanding of God's Word. And truly am speechless with regard to your creative fiction regarding the names of Sodom and Gommorah.
The Jews understand Sodom to mean "Flaming," and Gommorah to mean "rebellious people." Since it is their language I propose to have more confidence in their historical understanding than the nonsense you posted. The very meaning of the names indicates a high probability that the tale is allegorical.
Since you refuse to interpret Scripture with Scripture and turn to a fictional explanation, let's look at God's Word:
The Bible itself expressly describes the sin of Sodom elsewhere as radical inhospitality. According to the prophet Ezekiel, the real “guilt” of the Sodomites was the fact that, although they had “pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease,” they “did not aid the poor and needy” and were “haughty” (Ezekiel 16:49-50). Similarly, the Letter to the Hebrews warns Christians by alluding to the true sin of the Sodomites as inhospitality: “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels without knowing it” (Hebrews 13:2).
St. Jerome, the distinguished fourth-century Doctor of the Church, biblical translator, and author of the Vulgate Bible, described the primary sin of Sodom as “pride, bloatedness, the abundance of all things, leisure and delicacies.” (See “Commentaria in Hiezechielem” 5.16.48-51, as translated by Mark D. Jordan in The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1997], at 33 n.11.)
I'm sorry you have been so misled. I was, too, for many, many years until I decided a preacher I might let inspire me with a good sermon, but no preacher was going to form my theology. I grew up in a time when there was never a word spoken from the pulpit about homosexuality. In the last 35-40 years it has been vogue to blame homosexuals from the pulpit of everything from judgment on America for 9/11 to destroying the marriage of every heterosexual couple in the country.
The reason that was successful in conservative Christians' imaginative minds is because 1) they don't really do any independent research on what Scripture says, and, 2) those same people are basically fearful souls, dreading change, worried about other people's "evil" ways, and seeking someone to blame for both. In my youth that was communism. When that threat began to die with the split of the old Soviet Union, the preachers seeking money needed to stir up new fears to keep their coffers full of greenbacks. Jerry Falwell once sent out a fundraising letter declaring he needed money to fight the "homosexual agenda destroying America." He found success with a lot of insecure people and his campaigns stayed in that same vein. Pat Robertson and James Dodson caught on that fearful people will shell out the bucks and the race was on between the three of them as to who could do the better job of demonizing a very small minority of our population.
I'm sorry but you've been duped. It is not pleasant to discover that. And I'm sorry you think the mind is an evil thing. I believe God gave us a mind so that we could use it---particularly regarding Scripture. If you are unable to see from the Bible itself that inhospitalty was the major sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, then you must have shut your mind from any kind of reasoning. Hospitality was a primary prerequisite for any cities widely scattered in a desert environment. It could be the difference between life and death. God wanted people who were kind and generous to others. Scripture records numerous times about how the Hebrews were to treat sojourners in their country.
Conservative "Christians" today are flocking to follow a political character named Donald Trump who wants no sojourners in our nation---to keep us "safe." If the judgment of God is to fall on us for anything--it would be because the very people claiming to belong to God, cannot understand the real message of Sodom and Gommorah.
I am nearly speechless that you have such a poor understanding of God's Word. And truly am speechless with regard to your creative fiction regarding the names of Sodom and Gommorah.
The Jews understand Sodom to mean "Flaming," and Gommorah to mean "rebellious people." Since it is their language I propose to have more confidence in their historical understanding than the nonsense you posted. The very meaning of the names indicates a high probability that the tale is allegorical.
Since you refuse to interpret Scripture with Scripture and turn to a fictional explanation, let's look at God's Word:
The Bible itself expressly describes the sin of Sodom elsewhere as radical inhospitality. According to the prophet Ezekiel, the real “guilt” of the Sodomites was the fact that, although they had “pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease,” they “did not aid the poor and needy” and were “haughty” (Ezekiel 16:49-50). Similarly, the Letter to the Hebrews warns Christians by alluding to the true sin of the Sodomites as inhospitality: “Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels without knowing it” (Hebrews 13:2).
St. Jerome, the distinguished fourth-century Doctor of the Church, biblical translator, and author of the Vulgate Bible, described the primary sin of Sodom as “pride, bloatedness, the abundance of all things, leisure and delicacies.” (See “Commentaria in Hiezechielem” 5.16.48-51, as translated by Mark D. Jordan in The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1997], at 33 n.11.)
I'm sorry you have been so misled. I was, too, for many, many years until I decided a preacher I might let inspire me with a good sermon, but no preacher was going to form my theology. I grew up in a time when there was never a word spoken from the pulpit about homosexuality. In the last 35-40 years it has been vogue to blame homosexuals from the pulpit of everything from judgment on America for 9/11 to destroying the marriage of every heterosexual couple in the country.
The reason that was successful in conservative Christians' imaginative minds is because 1) they don't really do any independent research on what Scripture says, and, 2) those same people are basically fearful souls, dreading change, worried about other people's "evil" ways, and seeking someone to blame for both. In my youth that was communism. When that threat began to die with the split of the old Soviet Union, the preachers seeking money needed to stir up new fears to keep their coffers full of greenbacks. Jerry Falwell once sent out a fundraising letter declaring he needed money to fight the "homosexual agenda destroying America." He found success with a lot of insecure people and his campaigns stayed in that same vein. Pat Robertson and James Dodson caught on that fearful people will shell out the bucks and the race was on between the three of them as to who could do the better job of demonizing a very small minority of our population.
I'm sorry but you've been duped. It is not pleasant to discover that. And I'm sorry you think the mind is an evil thing. I believe God gave us a mind so that we could use it---particularly regarding Scripture. If you are unable to see from the Bible itself that inhospitalty was the major sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, then you must have shut your mind from any kind of reasoning. Hospitality was a primary prerequisite for any cities widely scattered in a desert environment. It could be the difference between life and death. God wanted people who were kind and generous to others. Scripture records numerous times about how the Hebrews were to treat sojourners in their country.
Conservative "Christians" today are flocking to follow a political character named Donald Trump who wants no sojourners in our nation---to keep us "safe." If the judgment of God is to fall on us for anything--it would be because the very people claiming to belong to God, cannot understand the real message of Sodom and Gommorah.
Well, what more can be said?
But, I've no doubt that someone will . . .
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